The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 27, 2021, 10:13:41 PM ---that's entirety you perspective on it.
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Yes, who others could it be?
--- Quote ---Something was the catalyst for the fetches, it didn't just happen. And as far as I know, this only hints at the answer, it does not tell it. Hence, why we still don't have that answer really?
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The answer will never be enunciated in explicit terms. The attack as plotted by me would have consisted of one attack. The final one at Splattercon. The only purpose of that attack was to draw in Harry to kill Madrigal.
--- Quote ---Although I'm aware of the theory that your talking about is based on, I have no idea why you've come to these particular conclusions, but none of which are my own.
The cluebat has nothing to do with two people summoning phages imo. It's the fact that the beacon and the summoner are not necessarily the same thing, and basically explain the concept of how Nemesis vectors. Fyi, what Harry guesses during an investigation is rarely spot on when he's just constructing things like the rope a dope theory,(he doesn't have all the angles, know all the players, ect. He just doesn't have enough to get the real answer on his own) it never comes to fruitation that he was being distracted from anything else. It's more Meta, the supernatural creatures are OUR distraction from what going on. And, on top of all that, if only the last attack is planned then it still doesn't address, WHY Molly?
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Surely you jest. The Damsel in distress? Jim favorite plot device. First Jim sets the emotional hook. The first trial. How sickened and unfair Harry feels it is. Enter Madrigal Raith White Court Vampire. Harry reads Madrigal as the culprit and kills him. Which came close to happening The White Council comes to town finds Molly and kills her. Harry dies trying to stop it.
--- Quote ---Now, I'm wizarding here to wonder what effect attacking arctis Tor actually had on the timeline if it was a TT event. Why attack, to what end, and what changes it made.
Shorter..
1 doesn't explain why arctis Tor was attacked which is my focus
2 doesn't explain, why anyone targeted molly from any angle
3 why, or HOW mab would send the phages after Pell, she wouldn't, in fact, she specifically couldn't. Replace Pell with Molly, same issue.
4 Madrigal, being a sacrificial goat to bring in WC? Why would that bring in the council? It was to give them a, preferably dead, patsy for the crimes
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Arctis Tor was attacked to keep Mab from interfering in the Reds attack on the Council. With an added note. She knows that Lily and Maeve are close. So is Summer may be involved. All else follows.
Molly was targeted because she was in the Juvenile Justice System. Which in Chicago is corrupted by one or the other factions. This was how Harry was disappeared as a child. And she was close to a Knight and Harry. An additional note if the White Court was involved it would explained how she was trapped. Perhaps by Madeline?
Mab can attack anyone as long as she doesn't do it herself. This should be obvious after Small Favor where she sends the Hobs into a train station full of people to kill the Archive. And the fact of Mab and Maeve are tap dancing around each other is supported in the denouement.
--- Quote ---I shook my head. “I think Lily got suckered just as much as we did.”
He frowned and rubbed at his head with one palm. “How so?”
“That’s the part I can’t figure,” I said. “I think someone set Molly up to be a beacon for the fetches. And I’m damned sure that it was no accident that those fetches took Molly to Arctis Tor when it was so lightly defended. Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor.”
Ebenezar pursed his lips. “Who?”
“I think we got used by one of the Queens to one-up one of the others, somehow. But damned if I can figure out how.”
--- End quote ---
In as much as anything Jim does is straightforward the why of it all is also in there.
--- Quote ---He glanced back at his house and said, “Have you ever considered the possibility that the Lord did not send me out on my most recent mission so that I could protect my daughter? That it was not His intention to use you to protect her?”
“What’s your point?”
“Only that it is entirely possible, Harry Dresden, that this entire affair, beginning to end, is meant to protect you. That when I went to the aid of Luccio and her trainees, I did so not to free Molly, but to prevent you from coming to blows with the Council. That her position as your new apprentice had less to do with protecting her than it did protecting you?”
--- End quote ---
I suggested Uriel was moving in the background. The books are written out of order. But as is, that puts the attack on Arctis Tor after Harry speaks to Mab in Dead Beat. And her retaliation has to be withheld.
One final note about TT. Did Jim think it would be cute to have Harry or someone save him from his toy. Why did Lash stay silent during the first attempt but balk at the second. All the questions become moot if you speculate that Lash caused the flaw and that she used Harry to cause Bob to not see it. Even if none of the rest of the plan worked Harry was slated to die when he tried to use it.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 28, 2021, 12:08:53 AM ---Yes, who others could it be?
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let me be more direct, I see nothing in your perspective except ideas based on conjecture, and showing why Mab didn't react is only the doyalist answer, it isn't an in story answer for why it happened, the perspective I'm looking for.
--- Quote --- The answer will never be enunciated in explicit terms. The attack as plotted by me would have consisted of one attack. The final one at Splattercon. The only purpose of that attack was to draw in Harry to kill Madrigal.
--- End quote ---
Nay, tis you who must be in jest? They set up an elaborate series of attacks, lining up a patsy with the same attributes as the killers, to point Harry at said patsy for his murder, only to have the real murderer show himself and fail to kill Madrigal while also clearly showing his innocence? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Coulda just sent the fetches to kill him to start. The only real explanation is it's a big soap opera set up for $hit$ and giggles then..
--- Quote ---Surely you jest. The Damsel in distress? Jim favorite plot device. First Jim sets the emotional hook. The first trial. How sickened and unfair Harry feels it is. Enter Madrigal Raith White Court Vampire. Harry reads Madrigal as the culprit and kills him. Which came close to happening The White Council comes to town finds Molly and kills her. Harry dies trying to stop it.
--- End quote ---
surely, you don't think all the foreshadowing and future usage of Molly was all thrown out the window for PG to peg her as a mere damsel in distress? Harry doesn't get warned of black magic, doesn't look deeper, maybe dies sure, council never twigs to Molly, as the culprit was already accounted for and nobody on the council lacks Harry's prejudice to actually pay attention, in fact, they would count on Eb NOT being able to look past it. Besides GKs clue, from a possible future, nobody on the council knew about Molly's connection, getting the clue from the future, how he could act on it was likely limited anyway. So Molly, as fear bringer incarnate, gets away Scott free.
--- Quote ---Arctis Tor was attacked to keep Mab from interfering in the Reds attack on the Council. With an added note. She knows that Lily and Maeve are close. So is Summer may be involved. All else follows.
--- End quote ---
not a valid explanation, and entirely ignores that she wasn't allowed to, it's implied she literally makes a deal, and as part of that deal she can't try to get revenge later for the specific turn of events. This is why she allows Lea such free reign when Harry gets her aid in his quest, this was directly stated
--- Quote ---Molly was targeted because she was in the Juvenile Justice System. Which in Chicago is corrupted by one or the other factions. This was how Harry was disappeared as a child. And she was close to a Knight and Harry. An additional note if the White Court was involved it would explained how she was trapped. Perhaps by Madeline?
--- End quote ---
I have literally no idea what your talking about here, Molly wasn't in trouble or anything herself before the events of PG, this isn't a linear thing.
--- Quote ---Mab can attack anyone as long as she doesn't do it herself. This should be obvious after Small Favor where she sends the Hobs into a train station full of people to kill the Archive.
--- End quote ---
prove it, any of that statement. We don't know who sent the hobs 100%, we don't know why they were sent, and we don't know how much control they'd actually have once there. The Hobs did Hob things and attacked indiscriminately. She didn't, and can't order anyone killed on a whim. She specifically has the WK to send after people she wants killed who are not affiliated with the courts or somehow in debt, course, with the WK on ice, it seems to me instead of chosing to act, some things are just set free to act where she'd usually apply direct action. But sending something to kill just anyone is directly against what we know they're capacity is.
--- Quote --- And the fact of Mab and Maeve are tap dancing around each other is supported in the denouement.In as much as anything Jim does is straightforward the why of it all is also in there.
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don't think that's accurate, just perspective. We know the queens only really act against each other to maintain balance. As shown in BG, they actually act in concert with the other, just in opposite. They were one upping their Nemesis, the player Harry doesn't know about yet there.
--- Quote --- I suggested Uriel was moving in the background. The books are written out of order. But as is, that puts the attack on Arctis Tor after Harry speaks to Mab in Dead Beat. And her retaliation has to be withheld.
One final note about TT. Did Jim think it would be cute to have Harry or someone save him from his toy. Why did Lash stay silent during the first attempt but balk at the second. All the questions become moot if you speculate that Lash caused the flaw and that she used Harry to cause Bob to not see it. Even if none of the rest of the plan worked Harry was slated to die when he tried to use it.
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really, really off topic and kinda confusing. But no... Without the message from GK he wouldn't have been in that situation of needing it yet, and Lasciel would have had more time to work on him. Don't think he was ever fated to die there, fated to fall perhaps.(although, alot of the TT specifically deals with stopping him from dying, it still works because they do so indirectly, without abrogation of free will and ergo fate. Aaand back down the rabbit hole... (click to show/hide) Everytime the timeline changes the person whose come back from the future changed to match the results of time playing out on it's current course. The current meta playing out has Harry eventually taking up lasciel, which would be how he later launches the assault on Arctis Tor. This continues into the Raith Deeps when Lash sacrifices herself. Where Harry as a clear inversion of Nic, manifests lasciel as a giant flaming being opposite Nics shadowy manifestation. Changing the new timeline and how those who came from it manifest.
morriswalters:
Of course everything we write is conjecture, since my name isn't Jim Butcher how could it be otherwise?
This is the prime motivator of the book.
--- Quote ---“You remember the Red Court’s attack last year,” he said. “That they called up Outsiders and assaulted us within the realm of Faerie itself.”
“Bad move, so I’ve heard. The Faeries are going to take it out of their hides.”
“So we all thought,” the old man said. “In fact, Summer declared war upon the Red Court and began preliminary assaults on them. But Winter hasn’t responded—and Summer hasn’t done much more than secure its borders.”
“Queen Mab didn’t declare war?”
“No.”
I frowned. “Never thought she’d pass up the chance. She’s all about carnage and bloodshed.”
“It surprised us as well,” he said. “So I want to ask a favor of you.”
I eyed him without speaking.
“Find out why,” he said. “You have contacts within the Courts. Find out what’s happening. Find out why the Sidhe haven’t gone to war.”
--- End quote ---
Here is the secondary mover.
--- Quote ---Dresden,
In the past ten days there have been repeated acts of black magic in Chicago. As the senior Warden in the region, it falls to you to investigate and find those responsible. In my opinion, it is vital that you do so immediately. To my knowledge, no one else is aware of the situation.
Rashid
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--- Quote ---Michael tossed his case and his bag into the back of his white pickup truck. “Molly was arrested. Possession.”
I blinked at him. “She was possessed?”
He sighed and looked at me. “Possession. Marijuana and Ecstasy. She was at a party and the police raided it. She was caught holding them.”
“Wow,” I said, my voice subdued. “What happened?”
“Community service,”
--- End quote ---
In this book at this point in the series Molly is nothing but a damsel in distress. She takes part in no fights, contributes to the plot in no way other than being the damsel.
--- Quote from: Small Favor ---“Why?” I demanded. “Why did you want the Denarians stopped? Why send the hobs to kill the Archive? Why recruit me to save the Archive and Marcone in the event that the hobs failed?”
Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves of her calves, and tilted her head at me. “Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition. That was reason enough to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon my home.”
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Mother Winter, Mab and Maeve are all Queens. Maeve and Mab were having a family fight.
That's all I have time for.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 28, 2021, 02:34:19 AM ---Of course everything we write is conjecture, since my name isn't Jim Butcher how could it be otherwise?
This is the prime motivator of the book.Here is the secondary mover.In this book at this point in the series Molly is nothing but a damsel in distress. She takes part in no fights, contributes to the plot in no way other than being the damsel.Mother Winter, Mab and Maeve are all Queens. Maeve and Mab were having a family fight.
That's all I have time for.
--- End quote ---
conjecture is an idea specifically based on incomplete information. As opposed to a theory which is postulated on incomplete information, subtle difference to me. actually your quote proved my point, nobody else knew of the situation with Molly. She wasn't in distress, she was the distress.
Mab and Maeve having a family fight doesn't cover HALF of it, she figures out Maeve is infected based on her actions in this book yes, but in order for that to be a side piece she already had to have had a culprit acting for Maeve to support. Nothing you said lines up to me and when I press you say you don't have time to explain? ignore me in the future then, I'm don't have anything for you.
morriswalters:
I'm uncertain what you seem to be angry about. I've spent a couple of hours writing those posts and I have other things that I have to do. But I will of course respect your wishes.
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