The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: groinkick on August 27, 2021, 07:09:12 AM ---With the attack on Arctis Tor, Little Chicago, and the Corner Hounds I'm wondering if there is going to be a time travel book where Harry is going to many different points in history, chasing someone else who's trying to mess things up.
Plot twist: There was Hellfire, but the one who nuked Mab's army was Dresden using Soulfire.
--- End quote ---
very similar to my idea, except I'd still think it's hellfire. Have you.. looked at the MCU multiversal set up? The branches and the different limbs and all that. That's exactly how I'd been trying to describe how I think harry getting home from MM would be, he has to jump through the different smaller timeline to get to bigger branches that get him closer to his core reality, except he has to make sure events match at each point enough to be similar to his next jump. Which would bring us back to the reality we know, and explain why it's so fractured and details misaligned. Because he gets to a very similar timeline, but in the closed loop aspect of it, it's not quite the same. I theorize alot of the sudden changes or "errors", past events no longer referenced, ect.(direct, on screen changes, like the car in DB outside of Bocks, are actively happening which is why the splice is there)Are the results of Harry changing what happened to suite him. Saving Thomas from shagnasty perhaps..?
(click to show/hide)a long time ago Jim was asked about shagnasty and his response was something to do with how powerful a being who would consider a Nag a foot soldier should give some indicator of who summoned sent him or some such... We now know Harry is fully capable of releasing them, and what more, iirc Harry's was the only empty spot in the room of six, shoulda been a full magical number seven though no? One was missing. I think when time looped back around and Harry saw the damage he did to Thomas he forbade him from doing such the next time he experienced the event of going back and, as Warden, releasing Shagnasty. just an idea. But I try to see what point any TT would have, what's the causality of it. Arctis Tor would seem to have got Mabs attention on molly perhaps, and certainly left the bastion clear when Harry came calling. The why of it is less clear, I'm wondering if he didn't assault the fortress not as an enemy outright but an unwelcome ally. Causing a direct confrontation with Mab before leaving in truce, or in chase of Nemesis escaping? Prevent Mabs infection, but indirectly cause Maeves?
I remember people here talking about the way things just seem to warp off center in the double books, Carlos' fist bump somehow marking Dresden and such, I theorize, much like the Doppler effect of the time travel attack on DR, the closer you get to the event horizon the bigger the waves. Thinking of other similarities in stories like a sound of thunder.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 27, 2021, 03:20:11 PM ---I'm thinking if that is what it comes down to in the end, it is a real cop out in terms of story telling..
Oh yeah, Harry or someone traveled back in time and altered all of that stuff... That for me at any rate would be a huge disappointment.
--- End quote ---
Not altered it, but worked in the background to make sure someone else didn't make it worse. Altering breaks the law of conservation of history Odin talks about. It's too hard to do, especially that far back. More like Prisoner of Azkaban style where Harry's maintaining his timeline.
BrainFireBob:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 27, 2021, 03:20:11 PM ---I'm thinking if that is what it comes down to in the end, it is a real cop out in terms of story telling..
Oh yeah, Harry or someone traveled back in time and altered all of that stuff... That for me at any rate would be a huge disappointment.
--- End quote ---
If Butcher does it, I would guess he'd base it on Wolfe's Solar Cycle.
(click to show/hide)Severian becomes the avatar of the Sun, and rejuvenates it and the earth. This lead to time-manipulating groups- some for him, some against him- to go back in time to meddle with his timeline. Since it functionally is a character test to become the New Sun, it's about ensuring that he has sufficiently comparable experiences to become the New Sun- and he realizes it himself, and that he himself had been one of those time travelers.
He grew up on the edge of a cemetery, and particularly favored playing in a particular crypt that appealed to him- as an orphan, the bust over the door looked like someone he could be related to. At the end of his first manuscript, he notes that he is on his way to his grave, where he played as a boy.
Butcher doing something similar would be fine by me- Harry hurtling around making sure his life is "close enough for government work".
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on August 27, 2021, 03:30:36 PM ---But I try to see what point any TT would have, what's the causality of it. Arctis Tor would seem to have got Mabs attention on molly perhaps, and certainly left the bastion clear when Harry came calling. The why of it is less clear, I'm wondering if he didn't assault the fortress not as an enemy outright but an unwelcome ally. Causing a direct confrontation with Mab before leaving in truce, or in chase of Nemesis escaping? Prevent Mabs infection, but indirectly cause Maeves?
--- End quote ---
The first attack on Arctis Tor had nothing to do with Molly. It wasn't a rescue and it was never meant to overthrow Mab. The reason there is so little resistance when Harry goes in was because he was meant to see what had happened. It is meant to answer Eb's question, why didn't Mab kick some Red Vampire ass?
Why did Mab have Molly brought to Arctis Tor? Hint. It wasn't to provide takeout for the Scarecrow. Everything that happened up to that point in time was to give Harry the time to connect the dots. He had to discover that Molly had used Black Magic. This was the whole point of Rashid's letter.
Molly is merely a stalking horse. She is being used to conceal an attack on Harry. And the phages are the key.
--- Quote from: Harry in Proven Guilty ---The phages. The answer was in the phages.
--- End quote ---
The phages are the pointer to Molly's psychic attack. Bob hits Harry over the head with a cluebat to indicate that the are two people calling the phages.
--- Quote ---“Okay. Assuming that, the next variable is finding out whether they’re being summoned or sent.”
I frowned. “There are things strong enough to send them through from the other side? I didn’t think that ever happened anymore. Hence the popularity of working through mortal summoners.”
“Oh, it’s doable,” Bob assured me. “It just takes a hell of a lot more juice to open the way to the mortal world from the other side.”
I frowned. “How much power are we talking?”
“Big,” Bob assured me. “Like the Erlking, or an archangel, or one of the old gods.”
I got a shivery feeling in my stomach. “A Faerie Queen?”
“Oh, sure. I guess so.” He frowned. “You think this is Faerie work?”
--- End quote ---
Here Bob is the distraction supplied by Jim. Both things he says are true. They are not mutually exclusive. Since Bob uses Queens you can take it to mean Maeve and Mab. Jim wants to make sure you don't miss that it is a distraction, so he tells you.
--- Quote ---“These phage attacks look fairly simple at first glance. Like… I don’t know. Shark attacks. Something hungry shows up to eat someone and then leaves. Natural occurrences. Or rather, typical supernatural occurrences.”
“But they aren’t random,” Murphy said. “Someone is sending them to a specific place. Someone who used magic to try to stop you when you interfered with one of the phages.”
“Which begs the obvious question…” I began.
Murphy nodded and finished the thought. “Why do it in the first place?”
I stuck my left hand out to one side of me and said, “Look over here.” Then I mimed a short jab with my right fist.
“It’s a rope-a-dope,” Murphy said, her eyes narrowing. “A distraction. But from what?”
“Something worse than homicidal, shapeshifting, supernatural predators, apparently,” I mused. “Something we’d want to stop a lot more.”
--- End quote ---
Now cascade down the logic trail like Harry. Mab sends the phages to attack Pell. Rashid sends the letter. Maeve summons the phages to the screening room. One of them sends Scarecrow to the garage. Meave summons the Phages to Splattercon. The last attack was the only planned attack. Madrigal was a sacrificial goat to cause the White Council to be called in.
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote ---The first attack on Arctis Tor had nothing to do with Molly. It wasn't a rescue and it was never meant to overthrow Mab. The reason there is so little resistance when Harry goes in was because he was meant to see what had happened. It is meant to answer Eb's question, why didn't Mab kick some Red Vampire ass?
--- End quote ---
that's entirety you perspective on it. Something was the catalyst for the fetches, it didn't just happen. And as far as I know, this only hints at the answer, it does not tell it. Hence, why we still don't have that answer really?
Although I'm aware of the theory that your talking about is based on, I have no idea why you've come to these particular conclusions, but none of which are my own.
The cluebat has nothing to do with two people summoning phages imo. It's the fact that the beacon and the summoner are not necessarily the same thing, and basically explain the concept of how Nemesis vectors. Fyi, what Harry guesses during an investigation is rarely spot on when he's just constructing things like the rope a dope theory,(he doesn't have all the angles, know all the players, ect. He just doesn't have enough to get the real answer on his own) it never comes to fruitation that he was being distracted from anything else. It's more Meta, the supernatural creatures are OUR distraction from what going on.. And, on top of all that, if only the last attack is planned then it still doesn't address, WHY Molly?
Now, I'm wizarding here to wonder what effect attacking arctis Tor actually had on the timeline if it was a TT event. Why attack, to what end, and what changes it made.
Shorter..
1 doesn't explain why arctis Tor was attacked which is my focus
2 doesn't explain, why anyone targeted molly from any angle
3 why, or HOW mab would send the phages after Pell, she wouldn't, in fact, she specifically couldn't. Replace Pell with Molly, same issue.
4 Madrigal, being a sacrificial goat to bring in WC? Why would that bring in the council? It was to give them a, preferably dead, patsy for the crimes
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