The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 21, 2021, 08:26:33 PM ---But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry. Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves. You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling. However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..
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Doesn't have to be willy nilly if they are smart. Take over some island that is semi-isolated and just summon them in until you have large force. Then just do what Ethniu should have done. Attack a large coastal city with no warning, massacre a 100k+ people and retreat before the cavalry arrives. Do it several times until the Supernatural/Mundane war gets going. It won't be a big blow to the Accorded Nations in one fell swoop, but supposedly the Outsiders are playing the long game.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 21, 2021, 08:26:33 PM ---But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry. Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves. You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling. However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..
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Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came. My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders. If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle. In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands. It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Second Aristh on August 21, 2021, 09:40:50 PM ---Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came. My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders. If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle. In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands. It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.
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It isn't random for starters. I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas. "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?" Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up. So guess who? Justine. Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey. Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.
The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it.. The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further. The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system. Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 21, 2021, 10:30:13 PM ---It isn't random for starters. I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas. "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?" Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up. So guess who? Justine. Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey. Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.
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What isn't random? Who said random?
Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down. It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her. Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building. At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours. If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara. Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds. That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 21, 2021, 10:30:13 PM ---The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it.. The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further. The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system. Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed.
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So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry? I don't buy that at all.
I don't think Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders either, including Justine. If it could, the cloak and dagger strategy of getting hooks into the various supernatural nations it uses is needlessly complicated. It could just use mortals to quietly summon an army of outsiders through the Outer Gates then take over directly.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down. It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her. Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building. At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours. If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara. Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds. That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.
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What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation? Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him. No, I think Harry's gut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?" Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap! That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally puts it together, he had seen though her in the apartment. Justine asks if Lara knows, not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her! Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the island, on the boat.
--- Quote ---So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry? I don't buy that at all.
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You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up. In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds. Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books. At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why Thomas did what he did? Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was? Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind. 1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine. Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,
--- Quote ---"Something about Justine wasn't. . .quite right, earlier, in the apartment," And I let my voice harden. "How long ago did you possess the girl?"
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The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all. Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;
--- Quote ---The she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, "I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind's eye."
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Justine exploited all of Thomas's weaknesses, his love for her that was Justine. Corrupted him so he'd be driven to murder and hopefully shatter the Accords. Sent the Cornerhounds to throw Harry off the scent and blinds Lara to what she really is.
One more answer to your question, Harry asks her, "why? to shatter the Accords?"
Nemesis answers;
--- Quote ---"Apocalypse isn't an event," Nemesis murmured. "It is a frame of mind."
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Then it goes on to speak of an unraveling of all things ending in Empty Night.. Interesting
it happens slowly and is done before anyone notices.. Madeline Albright in her book about
how democracies die describes it this way, paraphrasing, " the forces against democracy pluck away
at democracy feather by feather, like one would pluck a chicken, no one notices it or feels it until suddenly all the feathers are gone.." And people find they are living under a totalitarian state.
Nemesis basically tells Harry the same thing, how they will undermine everything, Mab, the Accords, upset the order of the universe, then all they "need is a single opening."
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