The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?

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Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Mira on August 13, 2021, 04:08:01 PM ---First question, were they or weren't they in true love at that time?  Because if they were, all Justine would have done was burn Thomas up.  And actually if he suspected it, and as we know wanted to get rid of his son, that might be why Lord Raith sent Justine to him. 

--- End quote ---

In BR the protection seemed to require an act of self-sacrifice to set up. Thomas' little sister was able to get away from the Raiths because the guy who was going to be her first took a bullet for her. Justine was willing to die to save Thomas, and he risked his life stopping feeding on her.

The sacrifice requirement seems to have been softened a bit in later installments.

Second Aristh:

--- Quote from: Mira on August 15, 2021, 11:26:12 PM ---Or infected before, there is motive you know?  If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas.  He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is.  No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.

--- End quote ---
No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo).  Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it.  There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 15, 2021, 11:26:12 PM ---I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie.  His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped.  Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.

--- End quote ---
Like I said, your mileage may vary.  Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me.  I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 15, 2021, 11:26:12 PM ---Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name.  As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.

--- End quote ---
Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with.  Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.

For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least.  To have predicted Justine from the beginning was going to get there requires Nemesis to correctly guess
1)  Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling
2)  Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.
3)  Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas
4)  Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way
If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant.  Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance.  If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.

Mira:

--- Quote ---No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo).  Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it.  There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.

--- End quote ---

Um, black sheep, a little crazy?  Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it?  Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen...  I'd say perfect positioning.

--- Quote ---Like I said, your mileage may vary.  Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me.  I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.

--- End quote ---

That is your view point, mine is I think time travel is over done and way to easy a way out of things.
But that doesn't make those view points common or uncommon..

--- Quote ---Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with.  Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.

--- End quote ---

No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.

--- Quote ---For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least.
--- End quote ---
Why?  Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary.  All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.

--- Quote ---1)  Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling
--- End quote ---
It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.

--- Quote ---2)  Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.
--- End quote ---
However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I. In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned.  So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..

--- Quote ---)  Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas
--- End quote ---
Again, my point, how did she survive?  Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..

--- Quote ---4)  Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way
--- End quote ---
Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.

--- Quote ---If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant.  Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance.  If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.

--- End quote ---
Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors"  Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.

Second Aristh:

--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---Um, black sheep, a little crazy?  Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it?  Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen...  I'd say perfect positioning.

--- End quote ---
Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target.  Might as well get Harry's dentist. 



--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.

--- End quote ---
Thomas met Justine at Zero.  A citation would be nice here.


--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---Why?  Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary.  All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.

--- End quote ---
Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed.  All that work over the course of years for no payoff.  It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections.  Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.

--- End quote ---
Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries.  Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I.

--- End quote ---
I'm not getting GP confused with Changes.  Check out the end of GP again. 
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan.  Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning.  Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM --- In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned.  So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..Again, my point, how did she survive?  Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..

--- End quote ---
Or maybe it was completely unpredictable luck that Harry managed to save her against all odds.  Other rampires had already started feeding on Justine before she got locked in with Susan.  Justine was set up to die that night from Susan's first feeding. 


--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.

--- End quote ---
You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics.  That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.


--- Quote from: Mira on August 16, 2021, 10:32:50 AM ---Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors"  Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.

--- End quote ---
Exactly, the world is difficult to predict.  Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda.  You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky.  Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Exactly, the world is difficult to predict.  Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda.  You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky.  Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.
--- End quote ---

She became worth it the moment she became kine for the immediate Raith family..  Big clue here, she's insane, but feeding on her makes her sane?

--- Quote ---Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target.  Might as well get Harry's dentist. 
--- End quote ---
But Maeve was infected, not possessed apparently.. As far as that goes, Maeve never had a "handle" as you call it on Harry, but Thomas did as of Grave Peril.

--- Quote ---Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed.  All that work over the course of years for no payoff.  It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections.  Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.

--- End quote ---
Nemesis has the time...  All that time it has someone on the inside, watching.. Hence the name HE WHO WALKS BESIDE, that is someone that goes along, they don't interfere they are just there watching and taking in information.

--- Quote ---I'm not getting GP confused with Changes.  Check out the end of GP again.
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan.  Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning.  Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.

--- End quote ---
Or because Justine was already possessed, Susan couldn't have fed on her if she wanted to.

--- Quote ---You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics.  That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.
--- End quote ---
That isn't Lara's style.

--- Quote ---Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries.  Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.

--- End quote ---
Yes, but that was before Margaret's curse, Papa Raith isn't the man he used to be.  He wasn't going to use Nemesis to take out Thomas, but use Thomas by way of Justine..

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