The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 15, 2021, 05:20:09 PM ---One could also ask since Lord Raith has the Outsider connection why would they need to infect Justine in the first place? No, the assumption is that there is a close connection between Lord Raith and Outsiders, it has yet to be proven without a doubt.
--- End quote ---
Why would it infect Justine at all? Because Lara mind whammied their old handle on the White Court. Once he's out of the picture in BR, time to start looking for a new agent. Hey, that competent aide we saw in WN might work out well. Lara seems to be leaning on her a bit. Oh, she's also got connections to that annoying starborn? Perfect. Let's get her on the team.
Jokes aside, Papa Raith explicitly has Outsider connections with the HWWB ritual. It's not an assumption. I don't think he was infected himself, but there's a good case to be made he was a Black Council member, and Nemesis is working with them anyway.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 15, 2021, 05:20:09 PM ---Why would it narratively take away from Thomas's situation? The fact that Justine/Nemesis had set him up from the beginning makes his life all the more tragic.. Just think all the sacrifice for nothing,
and unless Justine's brain was totally replaced on the boat when Nemesis admits to deliberately getting pregnant to set Thomas up, Justine didn't love him in that moment, now the question is, did she ever love him? No, it just makes Thomas a totally tragic figure, lots of narrative value in that..
--- End quote ---
"Love is a lie" is just not a widely compelling message. Besides, if Nemesis could have predicted all the dominoes falling into place for it to have gone after Justine from the very beginning, reality should have collapsed a long time ago. It's too sloppy a storytelling device.
Mira:
--- Quote ---"Love is a lie" is just not a widely compelling message. Besides, if Nemesis could have predicted all the dominoes falling into place for it to have gone after Justine from the very beginning, reality should have collapsed a long time ago. It's too sloppy a storytelling device.
--- End quote ---
Is it? Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device. In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along. I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened. Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court.. When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done. And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it.
--- Quote ---y would it infect Justine at all? Because Lara mind whammied their old handle on the White Court. Once he's out of the picture in BR, time to start looking for a new agent. Hey, that competent aide we saw in WN might work out well. Lara seems to be leaning on her a bit. Oh, she's also got connections to that annoying starborn? Perfect. Let's get her on the team.
--- End quote ---
Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated.. So she could strike
when there was an opening.
--- Quote ---Jokes aside, Papa Raith explicitly has Outsider connections with the HWWB ritual. It's not an assumption. I don't think he was infected himself, but there's a good case to be made he was a Black Council member, and Nemesis is working with them anyway.
--- End quote ---
And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..
Avernite:
I'm just not buying that True Love (caps deliberate) could be created by an Outsider. I believe it wouldn't know how, far too human a thing. So at least at the point where True Love was triggered, Justine was still fundamentally herself.
Granted, the Thomas case makes clear a background infection that isn't a full possession can still experience True Love. So Justine could, I suppose, have been a sleeper agent; infected but not modified much.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 15, 2021, 08:06:08 PM ---Is it? Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device. In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along. I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened. Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court.. When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done. And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it.
Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated.. So she could strike
when there was an opening.
And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..
--- End quote ---
Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR. The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.
To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR. For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?). Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice. It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending.
Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR. The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.
--- End quote ---
Or infected before, there is motive you know? If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas. He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is. No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.
--- Quote ---To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR. For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?). Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice. It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending.
--- End quote ---
I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie. His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped. Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.
--- Quote ---Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.
--- End quote ---
Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name. As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.
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