The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?

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Mira:

 Okay early this morning I was replying to a post in the Contagion thread.  One of the things we are debating there is when exactly was Justine infected?  In the course of that one question came to my mind, which led to another and I decided it really needed it's own thread.
 
  In Blood Rites Thomas is severely injured, to save his life Justine either volunteers or is sent to be fed upon most likely until death to save Thomas by Lord Raith.  Honestly I can't remember if she volunteered to sacrifice herself of Lord Raith volunteered her.  Anyway out of love we are led to believe Thomas risked not recovering because he stopped himself feeding on her in time to save her.  Her hair turned snow white, and she became Lara's secretary and a bit of a spy for Harry.  First question, were they or weren't they in true love at that time?  Because if they were, all Justine would have done was burn Thomas up.  And actually if he suspected it, and as we know wanted to get rid of his son, that might be why Lord Raith sent Justine to him. 

Which leads to the second part, how is it that Justine survived?

I don't know if the theory is correct, but any rate the feeding until death to heal him must be the exception to the rule, or Thomas should have burned up.  Or what if there never was true love between Justine and Thomas?  What if Nemesis can fake true love?  Thus the burning reaction can be turned off or on, at will?  In normal times when Thomas is merely trying to snuggle her, he gets burnt.. Off, when Thomas was feeding on her in Blood Rites to save his life.  In addition, Nemesis was strong enough to withstand any amount of feeding so it only seemed as if Thomas quit feeding out of love for her before she died from it.

If the above is true, it would explain a lot of things, it would give Nemesis a spy in Lara's inner circle. Also a double agent or you might say triple agent, because we know that Justine was passing information she learned as Lara's secretary to Harry, but at the same time Nemesis could be learning information from Harry and passing it on.. Thomas already totally potty over Justine would be fooled by the "faked" true love reaction from contact with her, the stage is set for ultimately happened in Peace Talks.

One last point, interesting don't you think that Justine waits until "Ghost Story," when supposedly star born with power against Outsiders, Harry is dead, to have the lesbian sex which allowed her to have intercourse with Thomas which led to her getting pregnant?   Why didn't she think of that before?  Why wait until Harry is "dead" and Thomas is at his most vulnerable ebb?

Second Aristh:
From a writing perspective, I think that the scenario explained in Blood Rites where Thomas was able to pull away at the last minute is probably the truth as well as the birth of the true love protection between them.  Faking true love seems like it would cheapen their character arcs in an unnecessary way (e.g. if it wasn't actual love for Justine, what motivates Thomas in PT?)

As far as the timeline for Justine's infection, I think that's a topic worth delving into more deeply.  Assuming that the exact point Nemesis infection has some clues in the text (since other major infectees were; Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith), we can start narrowing things down.

Beside claims that it had Justine since she had become close to Lara.

--- Quote from: Battle Ground Ch.35 ---"How long?"  I asked.  "How long have you been in Justine?"
Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture.  "Mortal time is such a limited concept.  A few years.  Ever since she became close to Lara."

--- End quote ---
Going off this, it seems like it would have to be at least a significant period after Blood Rites.  In White Night, Justine is still playing ditsy, but she's clearly Lara's top aide.  Significantly, White Night also shows us the Black Council interfering in the White Court.  Cowl got a personal view of Justine blowing her air horn and being protected by Lara, not to mention whatever information Madrigal passed along.  I'd imagine that that at least would have put her on the Black Council's radar, hence a Nemesis interest.

Justine was a small part of Turn Coat where she was in the club Zero and burns Madeline Raith.  I don't see an obvious time for her to be taken here.

Justine's next big appearance would have been in Even Hand, about eight months before Changes.  There, Lara sent Justine as a messenger to the Fomor but she was abducted by a different Fomor lord, Mag.  While in Mag's custody, Justine managed to free a bunch of his prisoners before fleeing to Marcone for protection.  This could very well be where she was infected. 

Justine was also a player in the Bombshells short story a bit before Ghost Story where Molly prevents the Fomor from bombing the svartalves at a treaty signing.  Justine being infected in Even Hand makes her involvement here need some explaining, but that's probably doable.

After that, Justine was a hostage of the Redcap in Cold Days.  This might be an opportunity to get to her, but we learned in BG that the Redcap was Mab's eyes on Maeve in CD.  It would have taken more than just the Redcap for that to be the infection time.  Plus, it doesn't exactly fit the "ever since she got close to Justine" line from Nemesis.

Finally, we know that Justine was infected before the start of PT since her getting pregnant was Nemesis's idea.  Of all of Justine's on-screen time, Even Hand seems like the most likely suspect from what we know now.

Second Aristh:

--- Quote from: Mira on August 13, 2021, 04:08:01 PM ---One last point, interesting don't you think that Justine waits until "Ghost Story," when supposedly star born with power against Outsiders, Harry is dead, to have the lesbian sex which allowed her to have intercourse with Thomas which led to her getting pregnant?   Why didn't she think of that before?  Why wait until Harry is "dead" and Thomas is at his most vulnerable ebb?

--- End quote ---
For this, Thomas was feeding well before Ghost Story.  There wasn't a need for him to feed from Justine prior to that.  After Harry's death, Justine was the trick to help him dig out of his depression.

Also, assuming that Even Hand was Justine's infection time, it's not long after that until Justine had the threesome idea.

Mira:

--- Quote ---For this, Thomas was feeding well before Ghost Story.  There wasn't a need for him to feed from Justine prior to that.  After Harry's death, Justine was the trick to help him dig out of his depression.

--- End quote ---

I believe it was mentioned in Grave Peril, that is when we first meet Justine, that Thomas was feeding
off of her and that was helping her mental health.  So yes, he was feeding on her.

--- Quote ---From a writing perspective, I think that the scenario explained in Blood Rites where Thomas was able to pull away at the last minute is probably the truth as well as the birth of the true love protection between them.  Faking true love seems like it would cheapen their character arcs in an unnecessary way (e.g. if it wasn't actual love for Justine, what motivates Thomas in PT?)
--- End quote ---

Why would it cheapen it?  It wouldn't cheapen how Thomas feels about her.  And it was that love that Nemesis used as a weapon, she deliberately gets pregnant, and uses Thomas's love for her and fear for the child as blackmail to get him to the assassination attempt in Peace Talks.. Which by the way Nemesis admits to in Battle Ground, does that cheapen how Thomas feels for her?  Justine herself might not feel anything one way or the other for Thomas, and Nemesis has been pulling the strings all along.

--- Quote ---As far as the timeline for Justine's infection, I think that's a topic worth delving into more deeply.  Assuming that the exact point Nemesis infection has some clues in the text (since other major infectees were; Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith), we can start narrowing things down.

--- End quote ---
Ones we were told about at the time, however we weren't told about Justine until the end of Battle Ground.  However the introduction of the infection to the Winter Court through the Knife happens in Grave Peril, that is also when we are introduced to Justine and made aware of the attachment of Thomas to her.

--- Quote ---Going off this, it seems like it would have to be at least a significant period after Blood Rites.  In White Night, Justine is still playing ditsy, but she's clearly Lara's top aide.  Significantly, White Night also shows us the Black Council interfering in the White Court.  Cowl got a personal view of Justine blowing her air horn and being protected by Lara, not to mention whatever information Madrigal passed along.  I'd imagine that that at least would have put her on the Black Council's radar, hence a Nemesis interest.
--- End quote ---

"Mortal time is such a vague concept."  Okay, so that means that Nemesis wasn't willing to give Harry a straight answer there, because that would answer a lot of questions he isn't willing to answer.  As in just when did the infestation happen and how long as Nemesis planned this strike?
You make my point when you say in White Night Justine is still acting ditsy but still is Lara's top aid.
Does Lara strike you as the type of person who'd have a ditsy person acting as her personal aid and secretary?  The answer to that is no, she wouldn't.  So more evidence that Nemesis can turn behaviors on and off at will for whatever serves it's purpose.

--- Quote ---Justine's next big appearance would have been in Even Hand, about eight months before Changes.  There, Lara sent Justine as a messenger to the Fomor but she was abducted by a different Fomor lord, Mag.  While in Mag's custody, Justine managed to free a bunch of his prisoners before fleeing to Marcone for protection.  This could very well be where she was infected.
--- End quote ---
Could be, or it was all an act, like her "concern" for Thomas after he was captured and beaten half to death in Peace Talks.  Something was a bit off, but because their love was "well known" Harry didn't push to find out why it didn't feel right.

--- Quote ---Finally, we know that Justine was infected before the start of PT since her getting pregnant was Nemesis's idea.  Of all of Justine's on-screen time, Even Hand seems like the most likely suspect from what we know now.
--- End quote ---
No, it is a mere assumption.

Second Aristh:

--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 03:56:26 PM ---I believe it was mentioned in Grave Peril, that is when we first meet Justine, that Thomas was feeding
off of her and that was helping her mental health.  So yes, he was feeding on her.

--- End quote ---
Sure he has fed on her before, but I was referring to the period between BR and GS.  There was no need to feed on Justine in that period since Thomas was well fed.  At the same time, Justine was on medication from Lara for her mental issues.  They didn't need a work-around for a problem that didn't exist.  It's not particularly suspicious that the work-around didn't come about until GS.


--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 03:56:26 PM ---Why would it cheapen it?  It wouldn't cheapen how Thomas feels about her.  And it was that love that Nemesis used as a weapon, she deliberately gets pregnant, and uses Thomas's love for her and fear for the child as blackmail to get him to the assassination attempt in Peace Talks.. Which by the way Nemesis admits to in Battle Ground, does that cheapen how Thomas feels for her?  Justine herself might not feel anything one way or the other for Thomas, and Nemesis has been pulling the strings all along.

--- End quote ---
"Psych, it's not really true love" is not a good story twist, imo.  Your mileage my vary.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 03:56:26 PM ---Ones we were told about at the time, however we weren't told about Justine until the end of Battle Ground.  However the introduction of the infection to the Winter Court through the Knife happens in Grave Peril, that is also when we are introduced to Justine and made aware of the attachment of Thomas to her.

--- End quote ---
We weren't told about Maeve's infection until CD, but we get in-text clues about it happening in the final battle of SK.  I'm going off the assumption that we're in a similar situation for Justine, hence looking for clues of those types of opportunities.

GP is a possibility, but that's even earlier than Nemesis admits to in BG.  Justine wasn't taken under Lara's wing until after BR.  Personally, the end of WN feels like the point where Nemesis would determine that Justine would be a worthwhile target, so the actual infection event would likely be sometime soon after.  If we also assume that it happens in text (since Justine is a major character), that puts Turn Coat/Even Hand to the top of the list of candidates.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 03:56:26 PM ---"Mortal time is such a vague concept."  Okay, so that means that Nemesis wasn't willing to give Harry a straight answer there, because that would answer a lot of questions he isn't willing to answer.  As in just when did the infestation happen and how long as Nemesis planned this strike?
You make my point when you say in White Night Justine is still acting ditsy but still is Lara's top aid.
Does Lara strike you as the type of person who'd have a ditsy person acting as her personal aid and secretary?  The answer to that is no, she wouldn't.  So more evidence that Nemesis can turn behaviors on and off at will for whatever serves it's purpose.

--- End quote ---
Does Lara hire people who can feign harmlessness as a shield?  Sure, seems very White Court of her to value brains over brawn.  It's even more in Lara's character to have an aide that's particularly protected from her backstabbing frenemies via True Love. 

I have no doubt that Nemesis makes for a decent actor, but I don't see particular relevance for it in that aspect.



--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 03:56:26 PM ---Could be, or it was all an act, like her "concern" for Thomas after he was captured and beaten half to death in Peace Talks.  Something was a bit off, but because their love was "well known" Harry didn't push to find out why it didn't feel right.

No, it is a mere assumption.

--- End quote ---
Even Hand being the time Justine was infected is built on a few assumptions, but I don't think they are unreasonable ones.

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