The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?
Mira:
--- Quote ---Sure he has fed on her before, but I was referring to the period between BR and GS. There was no need to feed on Justine in that period since Thomas was well fed. At the same time, Justine was on medication from Lara for her mental issues. They didn't need a work-around for a problem that didn't exist. It's not particularly suspicious that the work-around didn't come about until GS.
--- End quote ---
But whether or not he was feeding on her isn't the point.. He couldn't even touch her without getting burned after Blood Rites. Not sure which book it was or story, but Harry meets them in a bar and is surprised that Thomas has his arm around her, the answer then was a rubber skin suit for her.. Why? When a one night stand with anyone would have solved their problem?
--- Quote ---We weren't told about Maeve's infection until CD, but we get in-text clues about it happening in the final battle of SK. I'm going off the assumption that we're in a similar situation for Justine, hence looking for clues of those types of opportunities.
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Mostly we have speculation, Aurora is a better example, we all agree for the most part that she was infected by Summer Knight.. But how and who? Speculation, that it was Elaine, but no actual proof or even clues unless you buy she was infected when she fled Justin's house and found refuge at the Summer Court. A case can be made that Justine was infected when she was Bianca's prisoner.. Or depending on how far you want to push Nemesis long term planning, she was infected before she got the attention of Lord Raith to be kine for his son, whom he didn't wish well. Or if you buy that Lord Raith has some connection to the Outsiders, we know from White Night that some of them did, he or one of them may have arranged her infestation thinking long term..
--- Quote ---GP is a possibility, but that's even earlier than Nemesis admits to in BG.
--- End quote ---
He didn't admit to anything, he said...
--- Quote ---"How long?" I asked. "How long have you been in Justine?"
Justine waved the steel bar in a vague gesture. "Mortal time is such a limited concept. A few years. Ever since she became close to Lara."
--- End quote ---
She became close at the end of Blood Rites because Lara felt she owed her for what she did for Thomas. Noe Nemesis could have come out as said that, but he didn't, "mortal time is such a vague concept." What does that mean? Almost everyone here likes the time travel angle to the story, or a time travel angle.. "Mortal time is such a vague concept," means on his time line, not Harry's time line.. In other words, it isn't something that can be pinned down.
--- Quote ---Does Lara hire people who can feign harmlessness as a shield? Sure, seems very White Court of her to value brains over brawn. It's even more in Lara's character to have an aide that's particularly protected from her backstabbing frenemies via True Love.
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Yet Justine was busy back stabbing away feeding information to Harry when he needed it.
Basil:
Our facts:
(1) We know that Justine and Thomas shared true love at end of Blood Rites (or shortly thereafter).
(2) Justine's hair was able to burn Madeline Raith at Club Zero during Turn Coat and she had to wear a rubber suit (yow!) to interact with Thomas.
(3) At the conclusion of Ghost Story, Justine breaks Thomas' hunger strike with a clever plan. Harry and Uriel witness Justine's explanation of this plan. Uriel is amused at Harry's discomfort but makes no mention of any ... issue with Justine.
** Nemesis Infection Occurs **
(4) Justine is brought inside of Demonreach's defenses during Cold Days, just before Nemfected Maeve brags to Mab that killing her might give the Mantle to some ally of Maeve/Nemesis.
(5) Justine becomes pregnant at some point just before Peace Talks. This gives Justine the insurance she needs to manipulate Thomas into doing her bidding.
(6) Justine reveals that she is Nemfected and had planned to trick Harry into passing her through Demonreach's defenses to "visit" Thomas.
My Assumptions:
(1) A controlled, Nem-fected person cannot exhibit the "true love" necessary to shield that person from a Raith.
(2) It would be odd for Uriel not to mention an issue with Justine; it seems impossible that Uriel would not notice the presence of Nemesis. Seriously, if Uriel can't do this -- and he is just one tier down from TWG -- there is no way that Rashid can. This event also occurred after Harry DEMANDED and Uriel agreed to give Harry enough information to make a fully informed decision as to whether to "go back."
Conclusions:
(1) Justine was not infected until right after Ghost Story. It may be that breaking her "true love" protection that gave Nemesis a way in.
Justine would always have been a person of interest to Nemesis. She is essentially a "Privy Secretary" to the White Queen and is good friends with the Warden of Demonreach. In religious circles it is believed that being insane, doing drugs and playing with the occult create opportunities for possession. I think it's even mentioned in Small Favor. Justine kind of did all three of those things -- she's mentally ill; tried to control it with drugs (legal and illegal); hangs out with vampires and wizards and worse.
(2) Justine was already infected during Cold Days. Apparently, one aim of Nemesis is to get behind the defenses of Demonreach. Now that Harry has learned how to make the defenses more "active," she has to trick Harry into doing so. I don't believe that the Spirit of the Island can act against a guest of Harry. However, during Cold Days its possible that she could have exploited Maeve's and Lilly's death ... had Molly not been present to intercept the Lady's mantle.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 09:52:29 PM ---But whether or not he was feeding on her isn't the point.. He couldn't even touch her without getting burned after Blood Rites. Not sure which book it was or story, but Harry meets them in a bar and is surprised that Thomas has his arm around her, the answer then was a rubber skin suit for her.. Why? When a one night stand with anyone would have solved their problem?
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Probably club Zero in TC you're thinking about. Meh, it wasn't enough of a problem to risk Justine's protection. They wouldn't have known for sure that it would have come back before they tested it.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 09:52:29 PM ---Mostly we have speculation, Aurora is a better example, we all agree for the most part that she was infected by Summer Knight.. But how and who? Speculation, that it was Elaine, but no actual proof or even clues unless you buy she was infected when she fled Justin's house and found refuge at the Summer Court.
--- End quote ---
Aurora is an exception as a semi-major character where we don't have a good sense of where or when her infection came from. It's hard to give clues about when it happened when she was already infected when Harry met her. If it was Elaine, it'll surely come up when we get to the bottom of her story.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 09:52:29 PM ---A case can be made that Justine was infected when she was Bianca's prisoner.. Or depending on how far you want to push Nemesis long term planning, she was infected before she got the attention of Lord Raith to be kine for his son, whom he didn't wish well. Or if you buy that Lord Raith has some connection to the Outsiders, we know from White Night that some of them did, he or one of them may have arranged her infestation thinking long term..
He didn't admit to anything, he said...
--- End quote ---
Nemesis admitted to a vague period of time. He's an Outsider, counting time like a mortal isn't his thing. Could he have been off or lying? Sure, but it's harder to motivate lying to Harry when Nemesis is planning on killing him imminently.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 09:52:29 PM ---She became close at the end of Blood Rites because Lara felt she owed her for what she did for Thomas. Noe Nemesis could have come out as said that, but he didn't, "mortal time is such a vague concept." What does that mean? Almost everyone here likes the time travel angle to the story, or a time travel angle.. "Mortal time is such a vague concept," means on his time line, not Harry's time line.. In other words, it isn't something that can be pinned down.
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Okay, time travel shenanigans could change things. Kinda wrecks the speculation game if you go with the assumption that the words on the page tell you nothing, though. Nemesis answering Harry's question with a general period is Occam's answer.
--- Quote from: Mira on August 14, 2021, 09:52:29 PM ---Yet Justine was busy back stabbing away feeding information to Harry when he needed it.
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Are you saying that Justine helping Harry is evidence that Justine was already infected? I don't follow the line of thought here.
Second Aristh:
--- Quote from: Basil on August 14, 2021, 10:18:04 PM ---(2) It would be odd for Uriel not to mention an issue with Justine; it seems impossible that Uriel would not notice the presence of Nemesis. Seriously, if Uriel can't do this -- and he is just one tier down from TWG -- there is no way that Rashid can. This event also occurred after Harry DEMANDED and Uriel agreed to give Harry enough information to make a fully informed decision as to whether to "go back."
--- End quote ---
Hmm, this one is hard to explain. It's well after Justine became Lara's aide, so after Nemesis's claim. I think it's easier to call this a plot hole than to try to explain why Nemesis would lie about the timeline. Handwave that Nemesis is very hard to detect, and Uriel can't put too much power into doing things because he'd break reality. A mortal can't take the amount of attention from him required to detect Nemesis.
--- Quote from: Basil on August 14, 2021, 10:18:04 PM ---Justine would always have been a person of interest to Nemesis. She is essentially a "Privy Secretary" to the White Queen and is good friends with the Warden of Demonreach. In religious circles it is believed that being insane, doing drugs and playing with the occult create opportunities for possession. I think it's even mentioned in Small Favor. Justine kind of did all three of those things -- she's mentally ill; tried to control it with drugs (legal and illegal); hangs out with vampires and wizards and worse.
--- End quote ---
The White Queen's secretary is an attractive target, but Justine wasn't born that way. She wasn't worth Nemesis collecting until it was clear that she'd be in that position. So at least post-BR, but I think more likely between WN and PT. Specifically, the lead up to Even Hand at the moment.
forumghost:
"Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?"
I mean I'd like to think that Thomas, as a White Court vamp, would have...
Oh wait, you mean about Nemesis.
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