The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Jim on character vs character
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: groinkick on July 29, 2021, 06:40:11 PM ---Alright I agree with you, however I do believe Odin has backup plans for backup plans incase he failed, and it was for her to take his weapon as her own, and for him to use it against her.
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I'll totally buy that Odin had a spell on his gear to protect it from being used by others. But giving up your weapon in battle to weaken the enemy seems like a stretch.
Letting her use it to take out nameless fighters, Hendricks, McCoy, Cristos, Listens, River, Butters, and disarm Sanya all so Lara could pop her in the back of the head seems like overkill. Especially when the same command given at the moment Marcone shot her in the face, or Sanya was cutting her up, would have afforded the same opportunity without waiting for everyone else to fall in battle.
I mean, sure, maybe he had the Doctor Strange foresight to see the one way it could play out as a win. But that just seems like a stretch.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I'll totally buy that Odin had a spell on his gear to protect it from being used by others. But giving up your weapon in battle to weaken the enemy seems like a stretch.
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Why? They needed to get inside her defenses, that seems a perfect way. Ever hear of the Trojan Horse?
--- Quote ---Letting her use it to take out nameless fighters, Hendricks, McCoy, Cristos, Listens, River, Butters, and disarm Sanya all so Lara could pop her in the back of the head seems like overkill. Especially when the same command given at the moment Marcone shot her in the face, or Sanya was cutting her up, would have afforded the same opportunity without waiting for everyone else to fall in battle.
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Perhaps, but that is what was needed ultimately to get the job done.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 28, 2021, 10:41:55 AM ---Does it have to be? Odin is smacked, hard seemingly out, but he isn't. Then as the Titan is about
to do something with it, his says a word and it explodes in her face and does so much damage that Lara and her ladies just happen to be there to kick it from her head from behind. That screams set up.
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Molly said he was. She isn't just some know-nothing apprentice anymore. She is a Queen of Faerie. With that kind of power also comes knowledge. She's also Fae, so she cannot lie. So she truly believes Vadderung got laid out, and she has the knowledge that her position grants to make an accurate assessment of that.
--- Quote from: Mira on July 28, 2021, 02:38:52 PM ---Was he? Amazing isn't it, that he managed to mutter the exact right word, at the exact right time. That is why I mentioned "rope a dope," if you are a boxing fan, and even if you aren't most people have heard of the strategy of the late great Mohamed Ali in the latter years of his boxing career. He'd lean back on the ropes for several rounds, yes, take a lot of punishment, it would even look like he was losing, but then when the time was right, he'd deliver the knock out punch. I'm thinking that Odin played rope a dope with Ethniu, and when she thought she had the upper hand, he delivered the knock out punch.
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As I said above, we already have a weighty statement that he was laid out. I understand your theory, I do. It's a possible scenario. But it isn't a probable one, at least not based on what I have seen so far. What hint is there that Odin tricked her? Is there some quote from Odin saying "Sometimes it's better to play possum so your enemy becomes vulnerable" or something to that effect? Some evidence that Odin intended to lose his spear, that he had planned it with Mab and so on? I don't believe there is.
Would anything convince you otherwise? Not trying to be rude here but it seems like you are not willing to give credence to the contrary of your theory, yet also don't have evidence to support your theory. I would be happy to examine further evidence if you can provide some, but simply restating your theory based on a type of scenario that has occurred in our world yet not linking it with supporting evidence to the story makes it hard to get any further. I totally believe Odin could do a "rope-a-dope" if he wished. I just don't see any evidence so far that he did, but I am willing to re-examine that if you have any evidence to that effect. It's fine if you want to believe that for your head canon of course, but I can't see anyone agreeing with it unless you're prepared to strengthen your argument.
--- Quote from: groinkick on July 29, 2021, 06:40:11 PM ---Alright I agree with you, however I do believe Odin has backup plans for backup plans incase he failed, and it was for her to take his weapon as her own, and for him to use it against her.
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Ethniu specifically, or whoever managed to disarm him and steal his weapon? It's an important difference I think.
--- Quote from: toodeep on July 29, 2021, 07:00:51 PM ---Battle Ground was not the Battle Royal.
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Maybe not THE Battle Royal. But surely a Battle Royal? Unless I misunderstand the term.
--- Quote from: Avernite on July 29, 2021, 07:56:47 PM ---It's possible, but, I don't think he wanted that. Having a failsafe in case plan A fails is a bit different than 'lose my spear' being his plan.
That said, it IS intriguing that Chicago has 2 Swords and a Denarian on standby when a Titan comes knocking, and the third Sword coming in on time - almost as if the Angels (Fallen or not) did have sufficient foresight to predict a threat of this magnitude, and prepared for it. Almost makes you wonder if Lucy cheated in SF just to allow Uriel to upgrade his pawn to a Knight for this fight, though that may be attributing too much collusion.
Granted, Odin did have quite a bunch of Einherjar and 2 Valkyries ready to roll in Chicago too, so he can't have been completely unprepared.
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I think if there is one thing we have learned is there is no coincidence when it comes to the Knights (both of the Cross and of the Blackened Denarius). The big powers are constantly moving their pieces around. I don't think Angels really "predict" things in the way we would understand it. They have Intellectus. Divine Knowledge. All of reality is available to them - past, future, present (and alternate). It's more a matter of working out which version of events they are experiencing/will occur where they are. Beings that are beyond time and outside of it don't experience linear time like we do. The angels seem to be in that category. I suspect the Denarian Fallen are limited though. Either you still need to be connected to Heaven to have Intellectus OR your need to not limited by a physical object (like a Coin or Swords). I find the Lucifer/Uriel team up interesting. It's fairly plausible, even. Vadderung can create Gates/Ways that are allow instantaneous travel between points in space-time. He could summon an army very easily, and because he is a forward thinker, he always has a battalion ready to go. It's not unusual even for countries now, so why would the God of War be unprepared.
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on July 29, 2021, 09:34:25 PM ---I'll totally buy that Odin had a spell on his gear to protect it from being used by others. But giving up your weapon in battle to weaken the enemy seems like a stretch.
Letting her use it to take out nameless fighters, Hendricks, McCoy, Cristos, Listens, River, Butters, and disarm Sanya all so Lara could pop her in the back of the head seems like overkill. Especially when the same command given at the moment Marcone shot her in the face, or Sanya was cutting her up, would have afforded the same opportunity without waiting for everyone else to fall in battle.
I mean, sure, maybe he had the Doctor Strange foresight to see the one way it could play out as a win. But that just seems like a stretch.
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Exactly right.
Also, even if Odin had Dr Strange with Eye of Agamotto/Time Stone level foresight it seems more that odd that he couldn't prepare and let his allies know of the impending attack. It's also not hinted in the series anywhere before that he works like that. We can't confuse a bit of foreknowledge and excellent planning and forecasting with play-by-play perfect knowledge of future events. It's also poor writing in my book. It also doesn't make sense for that story, as Vadderung never claims to even know what's about to happen (and no one seems to behave like he does). Surely if he had that kind of knowledge people would be asking him. But Mab and the rest seem to be just as in the dark.
--- Quote from: Mira on July 30, 2021, 10:26:38 AM ---Why? They needed to get inside her defenses, that seems a perfect way. Ever hear of the Trojan Horse?
Perhaps, but that is what was needed ultimately to get the job done.
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The Trojan Horse, to your point, wasn't a traditional weapon. It was a "gift", but it appeared to have no real strategic or combat value. It's value appeared to be purely symbolic (of course it later turns out to be tactical). It would be quite different if the Greeks had left a more obvious weapon on the field. Yes, sometimes it can be a tactic to give up what appears to be a valuable asset (including a weapon or weapons) in a fight. But it's like if you're expecting to be mugged by a specific person and you give up your gun/knife/whatever because you have a failsafe built in, built on your weapon because you hope they take it off you and you can trigger the failsafe. But what if they don't take your weapon and just keep beating you instead, or use it on you before you get your chance? It's a high-risk strategy. Why wouldn't you just use your weapon to defeat the assailant?
Was the defeats/injuries/deaths of champions like Ebenezar, the Archive, River Shoulders etc really have been require to defeat Ethniu, if Odin could just do it with his spear? Odin took up his battle form (which we hadn't seen before, even in Changes) to fight Ethniu. He very much appeared to give it his best shot and it didn't work. It's also awful strategy to lose your champions if you don't require it. I don't see how they aided in Ethniu getting her Eye taken out either. So I don't really see how their various defeats were required for the play Odin used.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Was the defeats/injuries/deaths of champions like Ebenezar, the Archive, River Shoulders etc really have been require to defeat Ethniu, if Odin could just do it with his spear? Odin took up his battle form (which we hadn't seen before, even in Changes) to fight Ethniu. He very much appeared to give it his best shot and it didn't work. It's also awful strategy to lose your champions if you don't require it. I don't see how they aided in Ethniu getting her Eye taken out either. So I don't really see how their various defeats were required for the play Odin used.
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But their collective sacrifices did weaken Ethniu and removed the eye from her, then Harry with Marcone's help was able to whisk her away to prison.. What to your mind would have worked better?
--- Quote ---Would anything convince you otherwise?
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Yes, a better plan, which you haven't demonstrated so far.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 30, 2021, 07:01:30 PM ---But their collective sacrifices did weaken Ethniu and removed the eye from her, then Harry with Marcone's help was able to whisk her away to prison.. What to your mind would have worked better?Yes, a better plan, which you haven't demonstrated so far.
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How about beating Ethniu when she stood against three immortals? How much did those mortal punks really tire her out in comparison?
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