The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Jim on character vs character
Mira:
--- Quote from: Avernite on July 30, 2021, 08:30:47 PM ---How about beating Ethniu when she stood against three immortals? How much did those mortal punks really tire her out in comparison?
--- End quote ---
She still had the eye, and if they could have done that, they would have wouldn't they? They still would have taken a lot of punishment.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 30, 2021, 10:26:38 AM ---Why? They needed to get inside her defenses, that seems a perfect way. Ever hear of the Trojan Horse?
Perhaps, but that is what was needed ultimately to get the job done.
--- End quote ---
A better alternative would have been for Odin to trigger the spell as soon as she took it. Then she would have been weakened just as more big guns arrived and could have overwhelmed her.
But waiting to do it also afforded her the opportunity to use it in ways she didn't. She could have struck Odin or Erlking or Titania with it right after she took it, and she might have ended them. And then things would have been worse off.
I see the use of the defense spell as reactionary rather than proactive strategy. But I could be wrong.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 30, 2021, 07:01:30 PM ---But their collective sacrifices did weaken Ethniu and removed the eye from her, then Harry with Marcone's help was able to whisk her away to prison.. What to your mind would have worked better?
Yes, a better plan, which you haven't demonstrated so far.
--- End quote ---
Weaken her, sure. But Gungnir alone damaged her to the point the that removed the Eye.
If we assume Odin knew what was going to happen, as you claim, why not simply have a trap ready to go? Why not have all their armies ready and armed? Why not confront Ethniu with overwhelming force, perhaps even bait her to show up nearer Demonreach instead of at BFS headquarters so she could be bound?
You're entire argument presupposes that there was a plan in place to defeat her. There wasn't. They didn't know she would show up. Their plan was developed on the fly, after she revealed herself.
Can you show evidence to the contrary? You also haven't refuted Molly claiming Vadderung got laid out nor shown any evidence of the rope-a-dope tactic. Can you quote something? Because it's hard to see where you're coming from otherwise.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Can you show evidence to the contrary? You also haven't refuted Molly claiming Vadderung got laid out nor shown any evidence of the rope-a-dope tactic. Can you quote something? Because it's hard to see where you're coming from otherwise.
--- End quote ---
Page 297 Battle Ground, Harry spots Ethniu's weakness and what goes on for the next few pages are what I am talking about.. But this is what Harry sees;
--- Quote ---Titan's voice. These mortal beasts. These worms. I will grind that man's teeth to dust beneath my heel."
It was seeing that helpless fury that had taken her, that frustration and rage that did it, I think. I'd felt that way before. And I could handle it way better than she could. I had seen the Titan's weakness: She had the vices of her vitures.
In a way it wasn't her fault. Ethniu was an elemental being, a primal force of the universe. Such beings had been meant to shape the worlds from raw matter, not to cope with their wills being frustrated. Her own personal power meant that she could demand and get her way in nearly every circumstance.
But when she found a circumstance that wasn't like the others, she was confounded. She had been used to coping with the opposition, had grown rigid in her habit of victory. She never needed reflexes to deal with an agile opponent, with adversity, with unpredictability. She reacted to them the way a child would, confronting such obstacles for the first time.
She spent precious seconds throwing a tantrum.
And hope rekindled and flickered to life.
--- End quote ---
Now did team Harry huddle on their own five yard line to plan their attack? If you wanted that as your proof, then there is none. At the same time, what happens over the next twenty pages or so screams that it is part of an attack plan, unpredictable attacks that in of themselves didn't do a whole lot of damage to her, but at the same time they frustrated and pissed her off. Frustrated and pissed off people make mistakes, that is what Team Harry was counting on, they had hope, because they had a plan once they spotted her weakness. Yes, they took a whole lot of damage in the process, seemingly on the ropes, then on page 321-322.. Odin had her and his Spear right where he wanted them and he delivered the knock out blow.. A big deal is made of the damage that Ethniu could do with his Spear, but could she really do that much? As a spear, yeah, but she wasn't mistress of it, no, the Spear knew exactly who to answer to, and it wasn't her. Consider the calm manner, the deep voice when he gave his command, Odin was not someone down for the count going for one last desperate move.
--- Quote ---And twenty yards away, the swirl of battle stirred, and I saw One-Eye's shadowy form on the ground where he had fallen.He lifted his head.
He opened his eye.
It gleamed like a smoldering coal in the shadow.
And Odin, Father of the Aesir spoke, his voice a deep resonance that shook
the air with gentle power. "Gungnir."
I knew the translation of the weapon's name, a bit of useless trivia that had stuck in my head.
Swayer:
--- End quote ---
What happens next could only have happened if the Spear was in position where it could do the most damage. Ethniu had stolen it for her very own, yes, it is the Trojan Horse, because it never occurred to her that it could blow up in her face, but she had been tricked and it was right where it could do the most damage.. One on one, Odin couldn't have gotten that close to do that damage...
Odin speaks to Swayer and...
--- Quote ---A rune burst into scarlet light upon the Spear's blade.
And Like a snake, the weapon of the gods the Titan had stolen turned in her hand, whipping about with lightning speed. As it did, runes burst into light all along the length of the blade and haft alike, suddenly blazing with energy.
And the weapon plunged with vicious, absolute precision into the Eye of Balor.
--- End quote ---
And it was all down hill for Ethniu after that... That kind of thing takes planning, it doesn't happen by accident in my opinion.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 31, 2021, 03:41:20 PM ---Page 297 Battle Ground, Harry spots Ethniu's weakness and what goes on for the next few pages are what I am talking about.. But this is what Harry sees;
Now did team Harry huddle on their own five yard line to plan their attack? If you wanted that as your proof, then there is none. At the same time, what happens over the next twenty pages or so screams that it is part of an attack plan, unpredictable attacks that in of themselves didn't do a whole lot of damage to her, but at the same time they frustrated and pissed her off. Frustrated and pissed off people make mistakes, that is what Team Harry was counting on, they had hope, because they had a plan once they spotted her weakness. Yes, they took a whole lot of damage in the process, seemingly on the ropes, then on page 321-322.. Odin had her and his Spear right where he wanted them and he delivered the knock out blow.. A big deal is made of the damage that Ethniu could do with his Spear, but could she really do that much? As a spear, yeah, but she wasn't mistress of it, no, the Spear knew exactly who to answer to, and it wasn't her. Consider the calm manner, the deep voice when he gave his command, Odin was not someone down for the count going for one last desperate move.
What happens next could only have happened if the Spear was in position where it could do the most damage. Ethniu had stolen it for her very own, yes, it is the Trojan Horse, because it never occurred to her that it could blow up in her face, but she had been tricked and it was right where it could do the most damage.. One on one, Odin couldn't have gotten that close to do that damage...
Odin speaks to Swayer and...
And it was all down hill for Ethniu after that... That kind of thing takes planning, it doesn't happen by accident in my opinion.
--- End quote ---
I mean, they did their huddle right after Ethniu appeared and broke their clubhouse. But they didn't have a game plan for her, because they didn't know that she was even coming. You can't plan for a game you don't know is about to happen. It's like if I went to you and said "you're playing for the New York Jets in 5 minutes, and you're playing the KC Chiefs" and you didn't even know you were playing, let alone on the team. There wouldn't be a game plan because you'd just have to improvise, maybe have a quick planning session 2 minutes before the game. That's basically what happened in Peace Talks/Battle Ground.
I am not saying they didn't have a plan altogether. But it was cobbled together in the hour after Ethniu showed up, not before. There is no evidence they knew she was about to attack. There is evidence of the Accorded Nations planning right after she shows up. But I don't remember anything about making her think she had won. If that had been the case, why not show her that in a more obvious way? Think of a great heist movie. Often the villain thinks they have won until the reveal happens right at the end. Jim did this in Skin Game quite effectively. If he was doing that in Battle Ground, why not show it more? The closest he got was when Harry pulled out the Spear of Destiny which worried Ethniu quite a bit. But there wasn't a passage earlier setting up Gungnir or Odin to do a big reveal, which is Jim's style.
It's a bit of a jump really to say that because she was harried and distracted, they were making her think she was winning. She was winning. They barely stopped her. Ethniu did kill a fair few people with that spear (Hendricks, maybe Cristos, a bunch of Chicago warriors). She didn't kill Eb because he had an equal counter (the Blackstaff). But pretty much everyone else didn't survive it.
You keep saying Odin had her "right where he wanted her" but you haven't shown evidence that he did want her there or that he planned for her to be there. As others have pointed out, does it make sense for her to use it on the defenders of Chicago and kill many of them just to wait for some other moment? He could have done it right as she picked it up and ended the fight almost immediately. But he was laid out. Hence his single eye being closed, laying down on the ground, smoke coming off him...like a car after a really bad head-on crash. It's also the language Jim uses, the description is designed to signal a certain message to the reader. In this case, that Odin had been smashed. If Odin was playing possum, why not pick up his own spear as she reached down and stab her? He had multiple better opportunities.
How could Gungnir not have been effective if he triggered it earlier? It would have done the same damage, so Ethniu would have been vulnerable only earlier. And Eb, Hendricks, Cristos, the Archive all would have been ready to pounce. Also, Vadderung was close enough to do damage he just didn't use physical combat. All the gods fought with Power/Magic - a real god-level fight.
Occam's razor - the simplest answer is the right one. In this case it's that Odin was too injured to fight back and stop Ethniu taking his spear, and when he came to he pulled out his last trick. Why are you so sure that Odin couldn't go down? He's strong and smart certainly but neither invincible nor infallible. He got beaten in a straight fight so he did what all good warriors do, he played dirty. Which is always why you double tap. I guess Ethniu was already so tired after fighting four gods, she decided to not waste any more energy on them. Which mostly was fine because after that only Odin re-entered the fight, and only to use his trump card. Think of it like a villain with a hidden bomb vest. He seems to be defeated then pulls the pin, trying to take the enemy out as well. Odin just did it smarter and more precisely and efficiently. He was beaten but he still had his ace in the hole. It only requires the planning of having a weapon that can turn on it's wielder, Vadderung didn't need to know Ethniu specifically would take it to know it would be useful to have a weapon that turned on a thief should he be disarmed. It isn't accident that the weapon turned on her. Vadderung did intend it to happen AFTER he woke up and realised it had been stolen. Unless you're saying he knew it would be stolen before the fight (that he would have also had to know was about to happen)...which there isn't evidence of. Planning for a possible outcome doesn't require specific knowledge. That's why seatbelts and airbags are in cars. We know that cars get in crashes. We don't know when or how but we still put airbags and seatbelts in them, to prepare for that outcome.
Also, are you saying Molly was lying or that she was wrong when she says Vadderung/Odin/Kringle got laid out?
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