The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
New microfiction on the site
deadvoid:
--- Quote from: Arjan on December 23, 2020, 09:58:24 AM ---But did he commit suicide? Not according to some woj I remember vaguely.
Nicodemus has committed enough cardinal sins to get straight to hell but the knights still try to save him. Uriel and others tell us that as long as you are alive and you have free will you can make choices and you are not definitively lost. You can still work to improve your soul.
Apparently that extend to bodiless wandering souls as long as they don’t go to what is next. Harry and Collin. Between seems to be set up for this goal. Uriel gives them the chance to make choices and Collin made use of that.
This is Jim’s world and he does not follow all Christianity’s dogmas. The impression I get is that you shape your soul with the free willed choices you make and that shaping is not completed until you die and go on to what is next and that is not Between.
--- End quote ---
Murphy said she found him after he blew his head off, don't know about any WoJ
Yeah but Nicodemus being alive & completely in the realm of the living means he has full redemption option still on the table, Harry's body being kept alive meant he was in coma more or less --which led to not really dead--, but Jack was undoubtedly dead compared to them. It's possible he was offered to work for Uriel in Between instead of going straight to Hell like he believed he deserved to, which still doesn't really mean the redemption option was still on the table for him when he arrived there, or any suicide victims from Catholic's POV. So that goes back to what suicide means for catholic souls in Dresdenverse' afterlife situation.
morriswalters:
Harry never died in Ghost Story so it isn't about going to Hell. The part of the book where he talks to Eternal Silence and Inez is instructive. They represent Demonreach and Mab. Jim actually cribs "It"s a Wonderful Life".
If you take Changes at face value then Harry is evil. You don't kill or maim another Man's child to save your own. Ghost Story is about correcting that.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: deadvoid on December 23, 2020, 10:39:32 AM ---Murphy said she found him after he blew his head off, don't know about any WoJ
Yeah but Nicodemus being alive & completely in the realm of the living means he has full redemption option still on the table, Harry's body being kept alive meant he was in coma more or less --which led to not really dead--, but Jack was undoubtedly dead compared to them. It's possible he was offered to work for Uriel in Between instead of going straight to Hell like he believed he deserved to, which still doesn't really mean the redemption option was still on the table for him when he arrived there, or any suicide victims from Catholic's POV. So that goes back to what suicide means for catholic souls in Dresdenverse' afterlife situation.
--- End quote ---
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2011-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/
--- Quote ---Audience member: About Murphy’s dad and how he killed himself in the books…was that despair forced on him?
Jim: About Murphy’s dad and how he killed himself in the books…was that despair forced on him? (smirking) Who says he killed himself? (lots of audience reaction) You know, they just found him there and it, you know, looked like a suicide.
Another audience member: And the forums explode. (more reaction)
Jim: Oh, come on, I said this in like Kansas City and they had the YouTube video up like five minutes after I was finished talking.
--- End quote ---
But it is clearly shown that Collin Murphy in Ghost story makes choices, choices Uriel not always agrees with. He has free will and uses it. That means he can change his soul and Uriel gives him the chance to do so. The unavailability of the body is not that important after all you are a soul, you have a body. Also from Uriel's offer to Harry at the end of ghost story it seems that the people in between are people like Harry, Soul without body but not souls who are in what comes next because that is not revealed.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on December 23, 2020, 11:01:55 AM ---Harry never died in Ghost Story so it isn't about going to Hell.
--- End quote ---
Harry died. His soul left his body. He just was not gone, the distinction is clearly made in the books.
--- Quote ---The part of the book where he talks to Eternal Silence and Inez is instructive. They represent Demonreach and Mab. Jim actually cribs "It"s a Wonderful Life".
--- End quote ---
That is about returning to life. It is what Bob told him, dead can be reversible. But also about what Lash said, you have to die to understand certain things and now he did.
--- Quote ---If you take Changes at face value then Harry is evil. You don't kill or maim another Man's child to save your own. Ghost Story is about correcting that.
--- End quote ---
It is mainly about the let the world burn mentality and what he did to Molly. Harry breaks himself about killing Susan but that was not the point, Susan wanted it and for good reasons. I do not think the killing of Susan was considered evil at all. There was not that much attention to it given in ghost story as a thing Harry had to learn about.
deadvoid:
--- Quote from: Arjan on December 23, 2020, 11:04:11 AM ---https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/2011-transcripts-from-audiovideo-woj-sources/
But it is clearly shown that Collin Murphy in Ghost story makes choices, choices Uriel not always agrees with. He has free will and uses it. That means he can change his soul and Uriel gives him the chance to do so. The unavailability of the body is not that important after all you are a soul, you have a body. Also from Uriel's offer to Harry at the end of ghost story it seems that the people in between are people like Harry, Soul without body but not souls who are in what comes next because that is not revealed.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the link. if Collin Murphy didn't committing suicide then the question about his soul going to hell for cardinal sin isn't relevant anymore. I never looked into Collin's history by WoJ or how loose the rules of christianity got adapted (aside from magic/supernatural aspects) btw, so my view was based only from what's written in the books & my vague recollection on what religious people there expected to find in afterlife (Hades' words, Charmichaels).
I don't disagree with what you described for souls in Between (that works for Uriel), but I do still wonder about religious souls with cardinal sins, like perhaps what would happen to those who committed patricide but didn't seek redemption before they died, from brief grepping can't find any canon on that subject in WoJ.
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