The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Theory on the Origin of the Starborn and the Outer Gates [BG Spoilers]
Bad Alias:
What's going on with Outside and Outsiders is confusing. From what I've gathered from Lovecraft fans is that Outsiders are supposed to be confusing, so maybe that's the point.
K.L.O.E.:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on November 23, 2020, 03:15:01 AM ---I side more with the idea that TWG/Creator made a bubble in the middle of nothing that became Reality, and every being in the nothing was pushed out of the way as the bubble expanded, and they want to reclaim the space. That way the physics of the never-never mirror the universal expansion theory.
--- End quote ---
Heck, TWG didn't need to do it all by themselves. Given the "Most Stories Are True" nature of the setting most creation myths could be true in some form or another and upon ascendancy to being Top God as it were TWG nailed the rules down and started to enforce things.
Also, if that's the case where TWG nailed created a bubble of reality out of pre-Reality that leaves us with three choices for the origin of the Gates: 1) they were created by accident, 2) they were a necessary byproduct of the creation process 3) someone/thing made them from the inside. #1 is my theory above, #2 we would need some confirmation from the Mothers or something, and #3 is the Nemesis thread that's going on.
--- Quote ---But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.
Maybe it *is* a combo of the Old Ones being the pre-Reality creatures, and the Outsiders are their creations, but there are also beings that were sent out after the fact.
--- End quote ---
If space in the Dresden-verse expands like ours what used to be an annoying little bit of light could easily consume your little anti-reality bubble with those pesky laws of physics and rationality.
There are so many different ways Jim could play with the Outsider/Old Ones relationship. Are Outsiders merely Old Ones brought in? Are they Younger Old Ones? Is Outsider the blanket term and the Old Ones are the worst of the worst? Given that they leave a body full of ectoplasm behind it's almost as if they are to the Never-Never as the Never-Never is the materium.
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---The expansion of IndoEuropean pantheons being the inspiration for the ancient god wars makes sense so almost all of them don't work. But how can we say that they are recent arrivals to Creation when Uriel says he was fighting wars before the planet formed (so at least 5 billion years ago)? Also who's to say all of these fights over creation weren't happening back during the paleolithic, this could just be the current edition? :)
--- End quote ---
It seems quite plausible that war for reality is waged without breakes.
--- Quote ---Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?
--- End quote ---
They cannot be just expressions of his will - or they would be unable to Fall.
So they have will just in limited fashion - basically like within Christian vision of angelology.
But if TWG is The Creator - then he could just create them as separate beings and assign them roles within Creation.
--- Quote ---But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.
--- End quote ---
I see option that they just want to reclaim Creation for Empty Night for sort of religious reasons - not a bad idea.
But I'm also not against Outsiders or at least Walkers - being some very ancient beings that were banished from Reality and warped by unreal beyond what even madness of Nevernever can achieve.
--- Quote ---What's going on with Outside and Outsiders is confusing. From what I've gathered from Lovecraft fans is that Outsiders are supposed to be confusing, so maybe that's the point.
--- End quote ---
But also Lovecraftian beings are in a way very very rational - that's why they do not care about morality or pesky mud monkeys like us.
They are manifestations of Reality. Immanent to it. Wherever's life there's Shub-Niggurath, wherever's space there's Yog Soggoth.
It's Cosmos itself, Space itself that's terrifying and impossible to understand by humans, because our brains generate too much veils, and WE CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.
--- Quote ---Heck, TWG didn't need to do it all by themselves. Given the "Most Stories Are True" nature of the setting most creation myths could be true in some form or another and upon ascendancy to being Top God as it were TWG nailed the rules down and started to enforce things.
--- End quote ---
But we also know there is The Creator - which of course does not have to be TWG overseeing all creation - all multiverse. Even beings like Uriel and other archangels works in multiple universes same time - aside Skin Game when Uriel risked a lot on one card - we see just tiny glimpse of Uriel - tiny extension of his power in our universe. And he is multitasking a lot.
--- Quote ---Also, if that's the case where TWG nailed created a bubble of reality out of pre-Reality that leaves us with three choices for the origin of the Gates: 1) they were created by accident, 2) they were a necessary byproduct of the creation process 3) someone/thing made them from the inside. #1 is my theory above, #2 we would need some confirmation from the Mothers or something, and #3 is the Nemesis thread that's going on.
--- End quote ---
Nemesis would still need a gate from Outside to reach Creation.
--- Quote ---Given that they leave a body full of ectoplasm behind it's almost as if they are to the Never-Never as the Never-Never is the materium.
--- End quote ---
I mean most nevernever spirits would leave just ectoplasm. Faeries are sort of special - as they are part mortal and part material.
Demons, spirits and so on - need either some construct or ectoplasm body.
K.L.O.E.:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 24, 2020, 03:28:58 PM ---It seems quite plausible that war for reality is waged without brakes.
--- End quote ---
If we run with that idea what is getting Obliviated are the remnants of ancient primordial earthly spirits that never learned to play nice with the new status quo instituted by TWG. This creates some distance between the Oblivion War and the Outer Gates and explains why the Archive isn't hunting nemesis and the Walkers instead.
--- Quote ---They cannot be just expressions of his will - or they would be unable to Fall.
So they have will just in limited fashion - basically like within Christian vision of angelology.
But if TWG is The Creator - then he could just create them as separate beings and assign them roles within Creation.
--- End quote ---
Okay, so if we go with the theory that they existed independently or were created to function independently my theory that a chunk of Lucifer got tossed outside and that made the gates is still possible.
--- Quote ---I see option that they just want to reclaim Creation for Empty Night for sort of religious reasons - not a bad idea.
But I'm also not against Outsiders or at least Walkers - being some very ancient beings that were banished from Reality and warped by unreal beyond what even madness of Nevernever can achieve.
But also Lovecraftian beings are in a way very very rational - that's why they do not care about morality or pesky mud monkeys like us.
They are manifestations of Reality. Immanent to it. Wherever's life there's Shub-Niggurath, wherever's space there's Yog Soggoth.
It's Cosmos itself, Space itself that's terrifying and impossible to understand by humans, because our brains generate too much veils, and WE CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you that the lesser ones may be corrupted gods but I think there's a distinct difference between the Outsiders and the Oblivion War. If there's a connection between the White Court and the Outsiders why would the Raiths take part in the Oblivion War as soldiers and why would Winter keep a mature Archive on the sidelines? She's a Lady/Queen level power with less restrictions. Unless she's the tactical nuke they keep in reserve it doesn't make much strategic sense to me.
--- Quote ---But we also know there is The Creator - which of course does not have to be TWG overseeing all creation - all multiverse. Even beings like Uriel and other archangels works in multiple universes same time - aside Skin Game when Uriel risked a lot on one card - we see just tiny glimpse of Uriel - tiny extension of his power in our universe. And he is multitasking a lot.
Nemesis would still need a gate from Outside to reach Creation.
--- End quote ---
My question is really were the Gates made by the Creator, a traitor (possibly seduced from outside), a Remnant of Outside left inside, or were they made by accident?
All have some potential points. Making the gates by design could allow you to travel between Universes or it gives the Outsiders a point to attack so you know where to defend. A traitor/remnant could explain why HWWBesides is known as nemesis or explain the story of Adam and Eve. The accident is the one I'm leaning towards despite the most circumstantial evidence namely the starborn and the 666 year gap.
--- Quote ---I mean most nevernever spirits would leave just ectoplasm. Faeries are sort of special - as they are part mortal and part material.
Demons, spirits and so on - need either some construct or ectoplasm body.
--- End quote ---
If something Magical is killed in the Never Never does it retain corporeal form or decay into ectoplasm?
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---If we run with that idea what is getting Obliviated are the remnants of ancient primordial earthly spirits that never learned to play nice with the new status quo instituted by TWG. This creates some distance between the Oblivion War and the Outer Gates and explains why the Archive isn't hunting nemesis and the Walkers instead.
--- End quote ---
It seems so - Oblivated beings seems to be imprisoned in some distant places of Nevernever or Earth like The Sleeper not Outside, even if they are superficialy separated. It may of course be result of some of them being to hard to remove by Outside Gates.
--- Quote ---Okay, so if we go with the theory that they existed independently or were created to function independently my theory that a chunk of Lucifer got tossed outside and that made the gates is still possible.
--- End quote ---
Yes. But it's contradicted by lot of elements showing that Hell and Outside are separate places, working in different way.
Fallen like Angels are extremely limited in ability to enforce power, Outsiders when summoned can wreak havoc of great magnitude.
And there's WOJ about Denarians working against Outsiders IIRC.
I think Outsiders want to destroy reality as it's anathema to it. Lucifer and other Fallen just want to take over as rulers.
--- Quote ---I agree with you that the lesser ones may be corrupted gods but I think there's a distinct difference between the Outsiders and the Oblivion War. If there's a connection between the White Court and the Outsiders why would the Raiths take part in the Oblivion War as soldiers and why would Winter keep a mature Archive on the sidelines? She's a Lady/Queen level power with less restrictions. Unless she's the tactical nuke they keep in reserve it doesn't make much strategic sense to me.
--- End quote ---
White Court Vampires are humans+. Demon empowers them, but other than that they are mortals.
They want to rule mortal world - even if Outsiders are source of whampire creation does not mean Lara Raith wants to destroy universe.
(Neverthless White Court officially worked with Reds during war and Reds used Outsider help).
Let's not mix species or origin of power with purpose of units. Lara for all we know - just want to keep all non-vamp, not-permanently material sups out of mortal world, so mortal abandon magic and religion, and become easy pray to her brand of hedonism.
With Archive thing is - as she has not yet sire daughter - killing her could destroy Archive altogether. Her mantle. Risky business - and Archive is older than Queens.
--- Quote ---My question is really were the Gates made by the Creator, a traitor (possibly seduced from outside), a Remnant of Outside left inside, or were they made by accident?
--- End quote ---
All things are possible, depends on specific metaphysical relation between Creator and Outside.
--- Quote ---A traitor/remnant could explain why HWWBesides is known as nemesis or explain the story of Adam and Eve.
--- End quote ---
I mean Adam and Eve seems to be Lucifer's job.
It was meant to de-power mankind - although considering how role of free will differs in Christianity and in Dresden Files - I mean Adam and Eve in Dresden Files had to be stages somehow I think - because Creator needed more branches or smth. I mean in Christianity Angels are around to guide choices not to just protect free will.
--- Quote ---If something Magical is killed in the Never Never does it retain corporeal form or decay into ectoplasm?
--- End quote ---
Good question. Have we ever seen something purely spiritual slain in Nevernever - some ghosts I assume.
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