The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Theory on the Origin of the Starborn and the Outer Gates [BG Spoilers]

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K.L.O.E.:
Hello Everyone on the Paranet forums, I’ve been lurking for a while and normally talk Dresden with my cousin but he won’t get to BG until after the New Year and I wanted to bounce this theory off of you fine people instead!

The core of the theory is thus:

During one of the Great Celestial Wars before time and reality began when something was defeated it was cast OUT from the Never never as opposed to being cast down. This chunk of primeval being that got thrown sideways through what would become time broke the barely defined walls of reality and landed Outside. The beings of Outside were so damaged and enraged by the taint of reality in what had been their un-reality that they started to invade. Thus the victors of the Great Celestial War had to turn around and start to defend the walls of reality shortly after winning.

What defines whether or not they are a corporeal Outsider like Sharkface or an incorporeal Outsider like Nemesis is whether or not they feasted on the flesh of whatever it was or just decided to come check out this new glowing hole without stopping for a quick snack. Given that they were exposed to an unformed reality and this unknown primordial power it explains why normal magic cannot hurt them, similar to Ethniu it just isn’t matter to them. It is like us being hit by Neutrinos or something like that, it’s too small and insignificant to do anything material.

This brings us to the Starborn. Whatever was cast OUT radiated light, and given that we know physics is pretty similar in the Dresden Universe we can assume that light red shifts as well due to Universal expansion. This means that whatever light was being diffused is likely faded into universal background radiation. Something figured out that this light could damage the beings that were let IN through what would become the gates so they rearranged the stars and the planets to recompress the light to it’s original frequency as it shines on Earth every 666 years or so, this produces the Starborn.

Potential Wars (By no means a comprehensive list and I’ve left the Chinese celestial wars off as they happened on Earth and we have archeological proof that they happened. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong)
-   The Ӕsir – Vanir War of Norse Mythology
-   The Titanomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The Gigantomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The War in Heaven (Abrahamic Faiths)
-   The Battle of the Devas and Asuras (Hindu Myth)
-   Cath Maige Tuired (Celtic Mythology)

Potential Beings (By no means a comprehensive list)
-   Lucifer
-   Lucifer’s grace
-   Typhoon (or any Giant)
-   Chronus (or any Titan)
-   The many, many, many beings struck down by Vishnu or an avatar (though I do wonder if Vishnu is the god behind Odin/Beowulf/Kringle or at least his Hindu equivalent)
-   Lilith (praying this isn’t the case as it would be so freaking Lazy)
-   A world serpent or dragon (Jörmungandr, the Beast of Revelations, or something like that)

My personal pick is that when Lucifer was cast down, he was stripped of his grace and that was what got cast OUT. He was known as the Morning Star, the rebellion happened before the stars were born (to quote Mr. Sunshine: “I was fighting wars when this planet was nothing but a cloud of dust and gas”), and Starborn are born every 666 years. This theory wraps up the mystery of the Starborn, the Outer Gates, and why the fallen may work at cross-purposes to the Outsiders. I’m sure there’s something I’m missing so have at it!

Wicked Woodpecker of West:

--- Quote ---Potential Wars (By no means a comprehensive list and I’ve left the Chinese celestial wars off as they happened on Earth and we have archeological proof that they happened. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong)
-   The Ӕsir – Vanir War of Norse Mythology
-   The Titanomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The Gigantomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The War in Heaven (Abrahamic Faiths)
-   The Battle of the Devas and Asuras (Hindu Myth)
-   Cath Maige Tuired (Celtic Mythology)
--- End quote ---

Neither of those really fits.
Most god-titan wars, or gods-previous war fits replacing of Neolithic Pantheons by Indoeuropean invaders in times of Bronze/Iron Age.
It fits with Ethniu she is last of those primordial Gods that survived this multifaceted war.
We do not know her exact nature and role - but she is elemental force of Creation.

So both Titans, pagan gods and Angels fallen or not - are Creation.
And TBH they are aside of Angels not that much ancient within this creation.
I mean sure Ethniu can have like 7000 years, but compare it to Sue :P

So overall I think Outsiders have no mythological source other than Lovecraftian Mythos.


--- Quote ---My personal pick is that when Lucifer was cast down, he was stripped of his grace and that was what got cast OUT. He was known as the Morning Star, the rebellion happened before the stars were born (to quote Mr. Sunshine: “I was fighting wars when this planet was nothing but a cloud of dust and gas”), and Starborn are born every 666 years. This theory wraps up the mystery of the Starborn, the Outer Gates, and why the fallen may work at cross-purposes to the Outsiders. I’m sure there’s something I’m missing so have at it!
--- End quote ---

I doubt Lucifer was stripped of grace. Grace is what makes angel angel. When Uriel gave away his grace he was not reduced to Fallen. He was reduced to mortal. His grace was tainted but his nature unchanged - even Fallen he is still Angel by nature.

K.L.O.E.:

--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 22, 2020, 01:39:15 AM ---Neither of those really fits.
Most god-titan wars, or gods-previous war fits replacing of Neolithic Pantheons by Indoeuropean invaders in times of Bronze/Iron Age.
It fits with Ethniu she is last of those primordial Gods that survived this multifaceted war.
We do not know her exact nature and role - but she is elemental force of Creation.

So both Titans, pagan gods and Angels fallen or not - are Creation.
And TBH they are aside of Angels not that much ancient within this creation.
I mean sure Ethniu can have like 7000 years, but compare it to Sue :P

So overall I think Outsiders have no mythological source other than Lovecraftian Mythos.

--- End quote ---

The expansion of IndoEuropean pantheons being the inspiration for the ancient god wars makes sense so almost all of them don't work. But how can we say that they are recent arrivals to Creation when Uriel says he was fighting wars before the planet formed (so at least 5 billion years ago)? Also who's to say all of these fights over creation weren't happening back during the paleolithic, this could just be the current edition? :)


--- Quote ---I doubt Lucifer was stripped of grace. Grace is what makes angel angel. When Uriel gave away his grace he was not reduced to Fallen. He was reduced to mortal. His grace was tainted but his nature unchanged - even Fallen he is still Angel by nature.

--- End quote ---

I always thought of an Angel's Grace as being similar to a Mantle, that way all if anything happens to the Angel heaven can retake the Mantle and gift it to another without fundamentally altering the way things work. Really though this depends on the nature of Angels in this Universe. Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?

Mira:

--- Quote ---I always thought of an Angel's Grace as being similar to a Mantle, that way all if anything happens to the Angel heaven can retake the Mantle and gift it to another without fundamentally altering the way things work. Really though this depends on the nature of Angels in this Universe. Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?

--- End quote ---

Not exactly, that is why it was such a big deal for Uriel to loan his to Michael.  He was trusted not mess with the jet controls beyond what he was directed to use.  In that light I'd say that no, an angel's grace isn't like a mantle.

Griffyn612:
I side more with the idea that TWG/Creator made a bubble in the middle of nothing that became Reality, and every being in the nothing was pushed out of the way as the bubble expanded, and they want to reclaim the space. That way the physics of the never-never mirror the universal expansion theory.

But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.

Maybe it *is* a combo of the Old Ones being the pre-Reality creatures, and the Outsiders are their creations, but there are also beings that were sent out after the fact.

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