The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Theory on the Origin of the Starborn and the Outer Gates [BG Spoilers]
K.L.O.E.:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 25, 2020, 02:50:20 PM ---Yes. But it's contradicted by lot of elements showing that Hell and Outside are separate places, working in different way.
Fallen like Angels are extremely limited in ability to enforce power, Outsiders when summoned can wreak havoc of great magnitude.
And there's WOJ about Denarians working against Outsiders IIRC.
I think Outsiders want to destroy reality as it's anathema to it. Lucifer and other Fallen just want to take over as rulers.
--- End quote ---
I'm not saying Hell and Outside are the same, I'm saying that what made Lucifer Radiant, what made him the Morning Star is what got tossed outside when what became Satan was sent down to Hell. Think of it as throwing something in the garbage and the saran wrap coating falls on the floor instead while most of it goes in the bin. Unless the 666 in the Number of the Beast refers to something completely different. Or Alan Moore was right and Satan's number is 616 and 666 refers to the Outsiders. (Damn dimensional area codes)
--- Quote ---White Court Vampires are humans+. Demon empowers them, but other than that they are mortals.
They want to rule mortal world - even if Outsiders are source of whampire creation does not mean Lara Raith wants to destroy universe.
(Neverthless White Court officially worked with Reds during war and Reds used Outsider help).
Let's not mix species or origin of power with purpose of units. Lara for all we know - just want to keep all non-vamp, not-permanently material sups out of mortal world, so mortal abandon magic and religion, and become easy pray to her brand of hedonism.
--- End quote ---
That seems like a reasonable and in character motivation for Lara taking part in the Oblivion War. We've also seen the Whites using Outsider help during the duel in the caves so they aren't opposed to asking for some reality bending help.
--- Quote ---With Archive thing is - as she has not yet sire daughter - killing her could destroy Archive altogether. Her mantle. Risky business - and Archive is older than Queens.
--- End quote ---
Ivy sure, but past Archive's are a different matter entirely. I imagine Rashid would make a joke about his young friend eventually pitching in or something.
--- Quote ---All things are possible, depends on specific metaphysical relation between Creator and Outside.
--- End quote ---
Indeed. I doubt we'll ever actually get an answer. Fun to speculate though!
--- Quote ---I mean Adam and Eve seems to be Lucifer's job.
It was meant to de-power mankind - although considering how role of free will differs in Christianity and in Dresden Files - I mean Adam and Eve in Dresden Files had to be stages somehow I think - because Creator needed more branches or smth. I mean in Christianity Angels are around to guide choices not to just protect free will.
--- End quote ---
Did it depower or empower us? If we were meant to be magical god like things that acted in harmony with creation maybe it did take away our power and Talents are all that's left. If knowledge and free will were our gifts then the snake set us free. I totally agree about the story in the bible not agreeing with the message on Free Will in the Dresden Files.
--- Quote ---Good question. Have we ever seen something purely spiritual slain in Nevernever - some ghosts I assume.
--- End quote ---
Maybe in Ghost Story?
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---I'm not saying Hell and Outside are the same, I'm saying that what made Lucifer Radiant, what made him the Morning Star is what got tossed outside when what became Satan was sent down to Hell. Think of it as throwing something in the garbage and the saran wrap coating falls on the floor instead while most of it goes in the bin. Unless the 666 in the Number of the Beast refers to something completely different. Or Alan Moore was right and Satan's number is 616 and 666 refers to the Outsiders. (Damn dimensional area codes)
--- End quote ---
If anything I'd expect to Lucifer somehow be responsible of Starborn's creation, maybe even as part of his pre-Fall job.
Sort of like mechanism to fend of any Outsider small but fierce guys running around mortals, where angel cannot reach without exploding Milky Way.
Maybe he's nicknamed Lucifer (as I doubt Latin name is his original) because of this STAR LIGHT he brings, once every few centuries.
--- Quote ---That seems like a reasonable and in character motivation for Lara taking part in the Oblivion War. We've also seen the Whites using Outsider help during the duel in the caves so they aren't opposed to asking for some reality bending help.
--- End quote ---
Sure. Whites lacks one agenda - they are humans with free will after all.
Lara and Malvora clearly were on opposed sites of whole reality-saving thing.
--- Quote ---Ivy sure, but past Archive's are a different matter entirely. I imagine Rashid would make a joke about his young friend eventually pitching in or something.
--- End quote ---
If Archive is sworn to neutrality - it could mean she was not used because she simply cannot be used - except very specific circumstances.
--- Quote ---Indeed. I doubt we'll ever actually get an answer. Fun to speculate though!
--- End quote ---
I'm quite sure we've gonna get the answer. Jim is not a guy that abstain from using his Chekhov's Guns well.
--- Quote ---Did it depower or empower us? If we were meant to be magical god like things that acted in harmony with creation maybe it did take away our power and Talents are all that's left. If knowledge and free will were our gifts then the snake set us free. I totally agree about the story in the bible not agreeing with the message on Free Will in the Dresden Files.
--- End quote ---
I mean this is quite complex area. Within theology of course Adam and Eve had free will (that's why they could fall), and without fall this will would just aligned freely with God. Also knowledge of evil is treated in many ways as anti-knowledge - as evil is sort of distortion of being rather than real part of ...well reality. In a way you can know it only by being tainted by it.
But that within theology.
I'm more curious about God perspective in all this mess in DF, and purpose of mankind and free will overall.
If it's somehow simmilar to Christian beliefs then free will was rather not designed as a way to fend off outsiders, but maybe used later. Maybe it was Fall that ripped Reality new one, and all the rest of all possible histories is just one massive damage control.
--- Quote ---Maybe in Ghost Story?
--- End quote ---
Michael slain ghost in "Grave Peril" I'm sure
K.L.O.E.:
--- Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on November 26, 2020, 01:36:24 AM ---If anything I'd expect to Lucifer somehow be responsible of Starborn's creation, maybe even as part of his pre-Fall job.
Sort of like mechanism to fend of any Outsider small but fierce guys running around mortals, where angel cannot reach without exploding Milky Way.
Maybe he's nicknamed Lucifer (as I doubt Latin name is his original) because of this STAR LIGHT he brings, once every few centuries.
--- End quote ---
He was the morning star, the light before the dawn so that may be entirely plausible. Starborn could function as an immune system against the outsiders.
--- Quote ---Sure. Whites lacks one agenda - they are humans with free will after all.
Lara and Malvora clearly were on opposed sites of whole reality-saving thing.
--- End quote ---
Agreed!
--- Quote ---If Archive is sworn to neutrality - it could mean she was not used because she simply cannot be used - except very specific circumstances.
--- End quote ---
That's why I think the Oblivion War and the Archive are separate from the Outsiders and their connection to the fae courts. Ivy's role is to run around turning dinosaur gods into ghosts, so she's neutral so Summer, Winter, and everyone else let her do her thing in the shadows.
--- Quote ---I'm quite sure we've gonna get the answer. Jim is not a guy that abstain from using his Chekhov's Guns well.
--- End quote ---
I hope so? It's just a complicated question that may offend some readers so he may stay away.
--- Quote ---I mean this is quite complex area. Within theology of course Adam and Eve had free will (that's why they could fall), and without fall this will would just aligned freely with God. Also knowledge of evil is treated in many ways as anti-knowledge - as evil is sort of distortion of being rather than real part of ...well reality. In a way you can know it only by being tainted by it.
But that within theology.
I'm more curious about God perspective in all this mess in DF, and purpose of mankind and free will overall.
If it's somehow simmilar to Christian beliefs then free will was rather not designed as a way to fend off outsiders, but maybe used later. Maybe it was Fall that ripped Reality new one, and all the rest of all possible histories is just one massive damage control.
--- End quote ---
I think it was the fall of Lucifer that broke reality, they even mention in Skin Game how devastating a Fall can be. But yeah, free will in the Dresden Files is contradictory to say the least.
--- Quote ---Michael slain ghost in "Grave Peril" I'm sure
--- End quote ---
I thought they were in the Hospital, not the NeverNever unless Harry opened a way.
Wicked Woodpecker of West:
--- Quote ---That's why I think the Oblivion War and the Archive are separate from the Outsiders and their connection to the fae courts. Ivy's role is to run around turning dinosaur gods into ghosts, so she's neutral so Summer, Winter, and everyone else let her do her thing in the shadows.
--- End quote ---
But then Thomas implies - of course he is young and can speak bollocks - that Oblivionites conspired to destroy Faerie. Considering what we know about Fae role in protecting reality this is either: Thomas telling some Venatori urban legends, or sign Whampires who are imporant part of Oblivionites could have different priorities. At least White King in XV century.
--- Quote ---I hope so? It's just a complicated question that may offend some readers so he may stay away.
--- End quote ---
Look you cannot just promise Apocalypse and then pretend all this Abrahamic vs Pagan vs Fae vs whatever thing does not matters for it.
And I think that reactions of Ethniu to various supernaturals shows us she had complicated history - more even with Angels than with Mab, and this whole thing will matter for a future books.
While as a Christian I have special dose of sentiment to DF for Michael Carpenter I'm not expecting mad urban fantasy novels to keep proper thomist metaphysics. And I hope neither are Asatru readers gonna be angry if Odin and his generation of gods shall turn into just Grigori Angels sucking at their jobs :P
--- Quote ---I think it was the fall of Lucifer that broke reality, they even mention in Skin Game how devastating a Fall can be. But yeah, free will in the Dresden Files is contradictory to say the least.
--- End quote ---
It may be. Depends what overall story of Creation we shall get.
--- Quote ---I thought they were in the Hospital, not the NeverNever unless Harry opened a way.
--- End quote ---
They moved to Nevernever as spirit managed to get enough grip it retreated to it's ghost dimension in NN while still killing babies in Hospital.
That's why Lea was able to catch them there.
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