The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on November 04, 2020, 12:34:21 AM ---Yes, if I were Harry I wouldn't tell Ramirez anything now. Not even about Murphy, because if I told him, he would find very weird that I had been having sex with Lara at the Talks (and that I am engaged to her now). Ramirez has made clear that he is the enemy now.
--- End quote ---
That's what people saw, he didn't really have sex with Lara, but would Carlos even believe that? I go back to thinking that his pride as a man was injured, not just his body in that sexual fiasco with Molly. That would be enough to turn him against the Winter Court, and by extension lump Harry in with what he thinks goes on, with a little prodding from someone else. I don't think Carlos understands the Winter Court very well, we know Harry doesn't. One of the things I liked about Battle Ground was Harry getting flashes of insight into Mab, who she really is and why she acts the way she does.
Dina:
If I were Harry, I would need Ramirez to believe that Freydis illusion was true, so he does not go asking questions about what I was doing. I wouldn't want him to realize that I was helping Thomas.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on November 04, 2020, 04:44:28 AM ---If I were Harry, I would need Ramirez to believe that Freydis illusion was true, so he does not go asking questions about what I was doing. I wouldn't want him to realize that I was helping Thomas.
--- End quote ---
Neither is really a good option, is it? If he told him he really was having sex with Lara and survived it. Carlos would believe he is under the influence of the White Court. If he told him it was an illusion to distract so he could free his brother, Thomas, who is a White Court vampire, Carlos still would still believe he was under the influence of the White Court. Harry's real problem is guilt by association, he even sort of admits that at the Accords meeting after the battle, that Carlos wasn't wrong, these people were monsters, but he wasn't one of them, or at least trying not to become one. Even Eb appeared to be totally conflicted, on one hand he believes in his grandson, but on the other he is trying to get Harry to admit he is under the influence of the White Court so he can help him. He was so conflicted, he lost it and would have killed Harry, actually he did, but was his double.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 10:14:59 PM ---Consider though, at the beach, no FYI, no, "there are rumblings in the Senior Council, Harry, they suspect you of A, B, or C.. I know there is a lot you cannot tell me, but give me something I can live with." None of that, it was all very friendly and congenial, like I had said earlier, it was like Carlos was wearing a wire to entrap his friend or prove he was guilty of something. It was a sneaky knife in the back, put there by a so called friend.
--- End quote ---
You're not arguing with the point I'm making. As of PT, I don't think we disagree with where Carlos is.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 10:14:59 PM ---Maybe not, however how much has Carlos told Harry about himself? They are friends, yes, but how close are they? I bet there is stuff you wouldn't tell your best friend for a number of reasons or vice versa. But as a friend, you accept that.
--- End quote ---
I'm not doing anything that makes my friends think I could be betraying everything they stand for and maybe even them personally.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 10:14:59 PM ---And Carlos should also, but he didn't.
--- End quote ---
Carlos doesn't know what we know, so I disagree. Given what I think Carlos knows, I wouldn't trust Harry either. We don't really have enough information to make a good guess at what Carlos knows.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 10:14:59 PM ---You saw how that went down with Eb.. If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead. I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos. Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..
--- End quote ---
Eb is entirely different than Carlos win it comes to the White Court. So I disagree that Eb's reaction is any indication of what Carlos's would have been.
Like a lot of people here have said, I would have liked him to tell Carlos something at the memorial for Murphy et. al. Since Harry has no articulated reason for keeping that stuff about him mom and Thomas secret, I would have liked Harry to say that to Carlos. It would explain why he appeared so cozy with the White Court.
--- Quote from: Dina on November 04, 2020, 12:34:21 AM ---(and that I am engaged to her now)
--- End quote ---
Harry didn't know that at that point.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 04, 2020, 06:29:36 AM ---Harry's real problem is guilt by association, he even sort of admits that at the Accords meeting after the battle, that Carlos wasn't wrong, these people were monsters, but he wasn't one of them, or at least trying not to become one.
--- End quote ---
I just had a thought because of this sentence. What if the Merlin knew the "monsters" would react the way they did? Would they allow Harry, as member of the White Council into their meeting? What if the Merlin kicked Harry out so the White Council could have an inside man? Harry has shown time and time again that he's going to uphold the core values of the White Council no matter who says what or how the Council treats him. Many of us have wondered why the Council kicked him out because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the reason was to make him into a spy.
Phobos:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on November 05, 2020, 09:43:40 PM ---I just had a thought because of this sentence. What if the Merlin knew the "monsters" would react the way they did? Would they allow Harry, as member of the White Council into their meeting? What if the Merlin kicked Harry out so the White Council could have an inside man? Harry has shown time and time again that he's going to uphold the core values of the White Council no matter who says what or how the Council treats him. Many of us have wondered why the Council kicked him out because it doesn't make sense. Maybe the reason was to make him into a spy.
--- End quote ---
That's close to my theory on Harry's ejection from the WC, and I think yours also has merit. My thought was that the Merlin realized the WC was compromised (Nemesis/Black Council?) and, due to Harry's integrity to the WC's core values, pushed to have Harry voted out so they would have someone look with inside knowledge of the organization look from the outside and hopefully expose/remedy the situation (ala Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy).
I think the Merlin went through his normal political machinations to make it happen so no-one would think otherwise. I'm curious to know which Senior Council members voted which way.
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