The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 02, 2020, 09:49:14 PM ---Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.
--- End quote ---
He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.
@Dina: There are somethings you don't do to your friends just to make yourself feel better. Harry could have approached the topic with Carlos like he did Murphy in the Walmart café in SK, giving Carlos the option of whether or not he wanted to take the blue pill or red pill.
But Harry did have both selfish and selfless reasons to leave Carlos in the dark. Telling Carlos too much puts Carlos in a awkward situation. Misplacing his trust in Carlos could have gotten Harry executed.
Mira:
--- Quote ---But Harry did have both selfish and selfless reasons to leave Carlos in the dark. Telling Carlos too much puts Carlos in a awkward situation. Misplacing his trust in Carlos could have gotten Harry executed.
--- End quote ---
Which he made clear after he found the tracking dot on his wrist.
--- Quote ---He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I know, I thought the question was why Harry didn't send him a card. I think Harry did tell him a lot, pre Changes. However it is "post" Changes that has Harry where he is now, and from the books at least I don't think they had much if any contact.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 06:24:42 PM ---Yes, I know, I thought the question was why Harry didn't send him a card.
--- End quote ---
Easy misunderstanding of what I was addressing because there's a lot of other points raised by others between our back and forth, so I've collected ours right here for ease of reference:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 31, 2020, 04:48:17 AM ---Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time. Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.." When he says, "talk to me.." He is saying, "confess.."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on November 02, 2020, 07:33:48 PM ---I agree with this as far as PT is concerned, but think Harry could have salvaged the relationship by communicating more before PT. It was risky and maybe the right call at the time not to, but it could have worked.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Mira on November 02, 2020, 09:49:14 PM ---Should ah, could ah... But Carlos was apparently in the hospital, Harry was busy with Maggie and Murphy, not a good climate to talk.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on November 03, 2020, 05:04:37 PM ---He's known Carlos for years. WN or right after was the right time.
--- End quote ---
Now to where we are:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 06:24:42 PM ---Which he made clear after he found the tracking dot on his wrist.
--- End quote ---
So in the context of going back as far as WN, I don't think the dot on his wrist means that Harry's trust would have necessarily been misplaced in Carlos. I do admit the dot is some evidence that it might have been misplaced. On the other hand, a lot has happened that hadn't and might not have by the time Carlos puts the dot on Harry's wrist. Harry sharing secrets with Carlos could have built more trust so that Carlos would have been open about his concerns instead of sneaky.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 06:24:42 PM ---I think Harry did tell him a lot, pre Changes.
--- End quote ---
I don't think he told him anything big. He didn't tell him about Thomas, Elaine, Lash, and probably not Uriel or Luccio either. Telling him about Lash, Uriel, Thomas, Margaret the Elder being their mother, Lord Raith's murder of her, her death curse, and Lara's détente with Harry could have settled a great deal of suspicion Carlos had for Harry's actions and knowledge. But again, it also could have resulted in anything from pressure tactics against Harry to his execution (both from the White Council).
Knowing what we know of Harry, I would trust his intentions if not necessarily his judgment.
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 06:24:42 PM ---However it is "post" Changes that has Harry where he is now, and from the books at least I don't think they had much if any contact.
--- End quote ---
I agree that post deal with Queen of the evil faeries is probably too late to build that trust. Maybe not, but I wouldn't bet on it. For the sake of discussion of what Harry should have done, where he is now isn't all that relevant. Where he is now is thrown out of the Council and not friends with Carlos anymore. That's relevant to what he should do, not what he should have done.
I'm not sure if it would be a good idea, but I wanted Harry to tell Carlos that Thomas was his brother at the memorial service in BG. It basically explains all of his actions in regards to the White Court. The reason stated by Harry that he kept it a secret was that the WC and the WC would both try to use it against them if it was known. Harry only has ties to one of those WCs now. That reason is now gone.
Mira:
--- Quote ---So in the context of going back as far as WN, I don't think the dot on his wrist means that Harry's trust would have necessarily been misplaced in Carlos. I do admit the dot is some evidence that it might have been misplaced. On the other hand, a lot has happened that hadn't and might not have by the time Carlos puts the dot on Harry's wrist. Harry sharing secrets with Carlos could have built more trust so that Carlos would have been open about his concerns instead of sneaky.
--- End quote ---
Consider though, at the beach, no FYI, no, "there are rumblings in the Senior Council, Harry, they suspect you of A, B, or C.. I know there is a lot you cannot tell me, but give me something I can live with." None of that, it was all very friendly and congenial, like I had said earlier, it was like Carlos was wearing a wire to entrap his friend or prove he was guilty of something. It was a sneaky knife in the back, put there by a so called friend.
--- Quote ---I don't think he told him anything big. He didn't tell him about Thomas, Elaine, Lash, and probably not Uriel or Luccio either. Telling him about Lash, Uriel, Thomas, Margaret the Elder being their mother, Lord Raith's murder of her, her death curse, and Lara's détente with Harry could have settled a great deal of suspicion Carlos had for Harry's actions and knowledge. But again, it also could have resulted in anything from pressure tactics against Harry to his execution (both from the White Council).
--- End quote ---
Maybe not, however how much has Carlos told Harry about himself? They are friends, yes, but how close are they? I bet there is stuff you wouldn't tell your best friend for a number of reasons or vice versa. But as a friend, you accept that.
--- Quote ---Knowing what we know of Harry, I would trust his intentions if not necessarily his judgment.
--- End quote ---
And Carlos should also, but he didn't.
--- Quote ---I'm not sure if it would be a good idea, but I wanted Harry to tell Carlos that Thomas was his brother at the memorial service in BG. It basically explains all of his actions in regards to the White Court. The reason stated by Harry that he kept it a secret was that the WC and the WC would both try to use it against them if it was known. Harry only has ties to one of those WCs now. That reason is now gone
--- End quote ---
You saw how that went down with Eb.. If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead. I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos. Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..
Dina:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 03, 2020, 10:14:59 PM ---You saw how that went down with Eb.. If Harry hadn't preplanned, he'd be dead. I doubt if it would have gone down any better with Carlos. Yes, telling him that Thomas was is brother might explain some things, but it could also just confirm to Carlos that Harry was totally under the White Court influence..
--- End quote ---
Yes, if I were Harry I wouldn't tell Ramirez anything now. Not even about Murphy, because if I told him, he would find very weird that I had been having sex with Lara at the Talks (and that I am engaged to her now). Ramirez has made clear that he is the enemy now.
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