The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Nemesis Scope Survey [BG Spoilers]
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Avernite on October 10, 2020, 08:54:36 AM ---Well, see, I believe free will is useless if it can just be overpowered, and the Fallen and Knights make a big deal about it.
If Nemesis can just come in and rip your free will away, did you ever have free will to begin with? Was it just a loan or something?
I suppose there's the additional option that Nemesis CAN rip your will away by the power of another free-willed mortal, since that is at least consistent with the rest of my understanding of it. So if say Cowl was calling Nemesis onto Justine it's now her will against Cowl's will, rather than otherworldy-horror against free will.
--- End quote ---
It is not useless but it is not a panacea either.
Free will is about the choices you make but other people make choices too and some of those choices were made long ago.
And there is nature. You can not choose not to drown when you fall into the water, you can only choose to try saving yourself swimming but if you chose in the past not to learn how to swim you will still drown.
Sometimes you do not have that many options. That does not make free will useless, it just makes you responsible for the choices you can make.
A vampire can overpower and kill you. And maybe nemesis can overpower and possess you, I see no evidence in the text that permission is necessary.
Sure with weaker spirits it might be necessary just like in ghost story Harry had to be invited in a strong threshold but he could break into a weak one.
But nemesis is not weak. Things happen against your will free or not. That is also life.
The assumption that an infected human must have invited the illness is also typica blaming the victim behavior. It is attractive because then you can feel safe yourself but it is often bullshit.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 10, 2020, 10:31:38 AM ---It is not useless but it is not a panacea either.
Free will is about the choices you make but other people make choices too and some of those choices were made long ago.
And there is nature. You can not choose not to drown when you fall into the water, you can only choose to try saving yourself swimming but if you chose in the past not to learn how to swim you will still drown.
Sometimes you do not have that many options. That does not make free will useless, it just makes you responsible for the choices you can make.
A vampire can overpower and kill you. And maybe nemesis can overpower and possess you, I see no evidence in the text that permission is necessary.
Sure with weaker spirits it might be necessary just like in ghost story Harry had to be invited in a strong threshold but he could break into a weak one.
But nemesis is not weak. Things happen against your will free or not. That is also life.
The assumption that an infected human must have invited the illness is also typica blaming the victim behavior. It is attractive because then you can feel safe yourself but it is often bullshit.
--- End quote ---
It may be typical blaming-the-victim, but it's literally how Lasciel pasted a shadow on Harry. By HIS will, supported by many others for sure, but his will was the deciding factor to allow it.
Likewise, all the times a big nasty has used Will to assail Harry, it's when he has deliberately sought them out. It's never just happening.
And we have strong indications Sells, Denton, and so on accepted bad help before being twisted. We know Warlocks must use black magic to be twisted. And half-Reds must kill to stop being human.
In other words: all the evidence we have it's clear that, while major forces constrain and try to drive them towards a certain path, the only real way for will to be annihilated is for the one with will to accept it. And even then, in many cases there is still a path back (hence the Knights of the Cross).
If Mab cannot change who you are, by basically word of god (as well as Eb), can anything? Or can they only kill you?
The only contrarian datapoint we have is Justine; it's possible she's different because direct Nemesis is different, it seems far more likely we just don't know where she picked up bad influences.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Avernite on October 10, 2020, 10:53:01 AM ---It may be typical blaming-the-victim, but it's literally how Lasciel pasted a shadow on Harry. By HIS will, supported by many others for sure, but his will was the deciding factor to allow it.
--- End quote ---
Those are the rules the angels, fallen or not, operate under but mark that the fallen can break those rules and Uriel’s response has limits. A lot of damage by the seven words the fallen whispered in Harry’s ears was not repaired.
The white court can just walk in and overwhelm your emotions whatever you want. The black court can kill and turn you. Why would Nemesis not be able to just overpower you?
--- Quote ---Likewise, all the times a big nasty has used Will to assail Harry, it's when he has deliberately sought them out. It's never just happening.
--- End quote ---
And Vadderung easily overpowered Harry with his will just for demonstration purposes. But there is a distinction between will power as a force you can use in a form of combat and free will to make choices. They can not take your free will but they can overpower your will.
--- Quote ---And we have strong indications Sells, Denton, and so on accepted bad help before being twisted. We know Warlocks must use black magic to be twisted. And half-Reds must kill to stop being human.
--- End quote ---
But they can not stop being half vampire unless Harry redirects a spell.
--- Quote ---In other words: all the evidence we have it's clear that, while major forces constrain and try to drive them towards a certain path, the only real way for will to be annihilated is for the one with will to accept it. And even then, in many cases there is still a path back (hence the Knights of the Cross).
If Mab cannot change who you are, by basically word of god (as well as Eb), can anything? Or can they only kill you?
--- End quote ---
But is that even the point? The fallen try to corrupt your soul but corrupting your soul is different from just overpowering you and possessing your body.
Once the possession is gone your soul is unchanged. Maybe Justine was possessed because nemesis could not corrupt her just like nemesis possessed Cath Sith when it could not keep its presence hidden.
--- Quote ---The only contrarian datapoint we have is Justine; it's possible she's different because direct Nemesis is different, it seems far more likely we just don't know where she picked up bad influences.
--- End quote ---
Also Peabody could just influence Luccio’s mind so she started to date Harry but Luccio was not really changed by it and when peabodies meddling stopped Luccio reasserted herself. Nemesis infection could work similarly.
Free will is about the choices you make not about the circumstances you find yourself in.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Also Peabody could just influence Luccio’s mind so she started to date Harry but Luccio was not really changed by it and when peabodies meddling stopped Luccio reasserted herself. Nemesis infection could work similarly.
--- End quote ---
It wasn't that simple, Rashid said that Luccio was going to need a lot of psychological treatment to get back to normal. Harry also realized that what they had wasn't real when Rashid told him about it. Later when they met she seemed very sorry, on one hand she knew she enjoyed what they had, but on the other she now realized she was being pushed into it by the ink. Anyway, as Rashid said, the damage done to her mind by the ink was real and would take a while to repair. So what I am saying they may sound the same but not be. Getting rid of Nemesis may be easier for Cat Sith and Maeve, the only cure apparently was death. Mab managed to cure Lea, but it took many weeks in ice.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 10, 2020, 06:57:31 PM ---It wasn't that simple, Rashid said that Luccio was going to need a lot of psychological treatment to get back to normal. Harry also realized that what they had wasn't real when Rashid told him about it. Later when they met she seemed very sorry, on one hand she knew she enjoyed what they had, but on the other she now realized she was being pushed into it by the ink. Anyway, as Rashid said, the damage done to her mind by the ink was real and would take a while to repair. So what I am saying they may sound the same but not be. Getting rid of Nemesis may be easier for Cat Sith and Maeve, the only cure apparently was death. Mab managed to cure Lea, but it took many weeks in ice.
--- End quote ---
No it was not that simple and she has to work and endure for it but it is going to get better. ButI think her soul is intact and that will help the rest.
But that is to be expected. If Harry succeeds in driving out nemesis from Justine there will be damage but I think there is a good change Justine can be restored in the end. But no certainty.
But I left this point out not because it is unimportant but because it only obscures the point I wanted to make.
The point is about free will. Free will is about the choices you can make, not some protection against choices, free or not, others make.
The reason you have to invite the fallen in is not because free will is a protection against all invasions, it is because angelic and infernal beings are specifically interested in free will.
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