The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on October 05, 2020, 09:14:43 PM ----I don't recall Harry actually doing anything that got his friends killed or put them in danger. He asked people to help him, and they obliged. Also saving Maggie was a perfectly good reason to go to extremes. Not to mention that all of these actions were really part of the war with the Vampires, so nothing can really be said about the motives of Harry since he had knowledge that he was acting within said war. Saving his daughter was also tantamount to winning the war and saving himself and the Eb. Whatever Harry did, he acted knowing that he was acting within the context of the greater war.
-I dont see a problem with having Molly help him kill himself, especially since it was a fail safe against Mab manipulating him. I also don't see how allowing her to fight is a problem either. Molly is a big girl and makes her own choices. And asking a weaker person to fight is hardly a moral crime.
-That is and extremely....interesting...definition of murder. Martin was an asshole working for the Red Court and had betrayed them all. Susan literally told Dresden to kill her in order to take out the Red Court. Why should a stand-up hero not do that? Its not heroic to have absurd and unprincipled standards that are devoid of context. Even if Susan had not given her assent to Harry, he would have been justified in killing her to activate the spell because she was dead or worse if he didn't. The situation is so black and white its not even funny imo.
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-He didn't give a rats ass about the greater war, the plan was to just grab Maggie and run.
-He pressured someone he knows is in love with him into helping kill him and then brought her to a place with a very real chance of shattering her mind (she's probably lucky in a sense that she was out from blood loss before the climax). And this plan then guaranteed her death because of the doom with a high chance of going mad before she dies. As her mentor this was some horrible decision-making on Dresden's part.
-He manipulated Susan into being a viable blood sacrifice before the end (and then years later conveniently left that part of the story out).
noblehunter:
I'm mostly pointing out what people have raised as issues in the past. If you think everything Harry did was justified, that's a legitimate way to read the book. I'll still argue about it some but I'm not interested in pursuing every question.
Regarding Molly, her ability to make choices regarding Harry was compromised. He was her teacher, she had romantic feelings for him, she was her big damn hero, and she was already compromised by black magic. When you know how someone is going to answer, sometimes you have a responsibility not to ask. Even if she was an adult, Harry has a duty of care towards her as her teacher. He should not have led her into danger.
Interestingly, asking Molly to help kill him wasn't his fault, which further complicates the issue. Since that's how Molly was most grievously hurt.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on October 05, 2020, 09:37:24 PM ----He didn't give a rats ass about the greater war, the plan was to just grab Maggie and run.
-He pressured someone he knows is in love with him into helping kill him and then brought her to a place with a very real chance of shattering her mind (she's probably lucky in a sense that she was out from blood loss before the climax). And this plan then guaranteed her death because of the doom with a high chance of going mad before she dies. As her mentor this was some horrible decision-making on Dresden's part.
-He manipulated Susan into being a viable blood sacrifice before the end (and then years later conveniently left that part of the story out).
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-Doesn't matter what he gave a rats ass about. Motivations are irrelevant if the actions are justified. Saving his daughter was a perfectly good justification on its own for everything he did in the books, but even if it hadn't been it would not have mattered. Motivations make you guilty of nothing. Motivations only affect guilt if the actions committed could not have been justified given the circumstances. Ex: Hitler kills a rapist and saves a person from being raped. It doesn't matter if Hitler acting just because he knew the rapist was Jewish. That's not how moral responsibility works.
-None of that is morally bad. Asking things of people who love you is normal. She made her own choices and no one forced her. I don't consider the events regarding Molly to even be slightly objectionable. And it self-evidently did not guarantee her death because she is you know, alive. Harry asked his close friend to take some big risks for him. Big whoop.
-Manipulated? As I recall it was a spur of the moment thing when it became clear there were no other options. Susan was dead or worse regardless of what Harry did. If Harry had not gotten her to kill Martin, she would have died or suffered some other wrath of the Red Court. If not that, then she would have be forced into becoming a full vampire by the Red Court since she was in their custody. Moreover, Susan knew what she was doing when she did it. She made he own choices, the fact that Harry gave her that information for his own benefit is irrelevant.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 09:46:09 PM ---I'm mostly pointing out what people have raised as issues in the past. If you think everything Harry did was justified, that's a legitimate way to read the book. I'll still argue about it some but I'm not interested in pursuing every question.
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Fair enough, the point of this was for me to find out what the objections were anyhow.
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 09:46:09 PM ---
Regarding Molly, her ability to make choices regarding Harry was compromised. He was her teacher, she had romantic feelings for him, she was her big damn hero, and she was already compromised by black magic. When you know how someone is going to answer, sometimes you have a responsibility not to ask. Even if she was an adult, Harry has a duty of care towards her as her teacher. He should not have led her into danger.
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An adult never has their decision making compromised, at least not from the things you listed. She was an adult, it doesn't matter it he was her mentor. Would it be wrong for Eb to ask Harry for help? Of course not. It also doesn't matter that she was in love with him. Is it wrong to ask a spouse for help? I mean come on. And I reject entirely that black magic is real or works the way the WC thinks it does. The entire justification given by the WC is logically incoherent with regards to the laws of magic.
Mira:
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Molly is and was a big girl who can make her own choices. Dresden didn't mind control her. And he didn't ask favors lightly, he asked her to do it because of extreme need. That's not being jerk. And Molly took a risk, it was not a death sentence. As evinced by her still being alive.
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Exactly, she'd also be dead if Harry hadn't stood up for her, so she owed him one. Also those that went to C.I. were grown ups, they knew what the Red Court was, they weren't forced, it was their choice to go.
--- Quote ---Interestingly, asking Molly to help kill him wasn't his fault, which further complicates the issue. Since that's how Molly was most grievously hurt.
--- End quote ---
There is a moment I believe in Peace Talks where Harry express regret for what asking her to do it, did to her. I believe her answer was she'd do it again. No, it wasn't Harry's fault in the sense that it was the Red King that first murdered her foster family and then kidnapped little Maggie. Harry wouldn't even have known that she existed except Susan asked him to help save her. It wasn't his fault that the boarding house was fire bombed and that gas tank exploded just when he was on that ladder trying to save that old lady. It wasn't his fault that his back was broken and his spine severed, and his little girl was about to be killed along with himself and his grandfather and there wasn't anything he could do about it. He did feel that Mab was a monster, he didn't want to become her monster, yet to save his child this was what he had to do. He was hurt, worried, not himself at all, he cannot really be held responsible for coming up with the one solution he thought could prevent him from being used by Mab. Molly was of age, she was no innocent, look what she did to her friends, and she proved later in Turn Coat that she would do it again, putting Harry's head at risk as well as her own. As they say, it was a shit show all around, it is a miracle it came out as well as it did.
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