The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.
noblehunter:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on October 05, 2020, 09:59:49 PM ---An adult never has their decision making compromised, at least not from the things you listed. She was an adult, it doesn't matter it he was her mentor. Would it be wrong for Eb to ask Harry for help? Of course not. It also doesn't matter that she was in love with him. Is it wrong to ask a spouse for help? I mean come on. And I reject entirely that black magic is real or works the way the WC thinks it does. The entire justification given by the WC is logically incoherent with regards to the laws of magic.
--- End quote ---
Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you. Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master. That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.
Mira, we have the (almost) literal word of god that Harry's suicide was compelled by one of the Fallen. Ergo, asking Molly to help kill him can't be Harry's fault.
BrainFireBob:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on October 05, 2020, 09:59:49 PM ---Fair enough, the point of this was for me to find out what the objections were anyhow.
An adult never has their decision making compromised, at least not from the things you listed. She was an adult, it doesn't matter it he was her mentor. Would it be wrong for Eb to ask Harry for help? Of course not. It also doesn't matter that she was in love with him. Is it wrong to ask a spouse for help? I mean come on. And I reject entirely that black magic is real or works the way the WC thinks it does. The entire justification given by the WC is logically incoherent with regards to the laws of magic.
--- End quote ---
Notice your use of "I." Your conceptual gap is your fanon. You don't trust the White Council, or its understanding of how black magic works, despite Harry agreeing with them on how it works and "taints" the magic of a wizard or sorcerer.
Harry chose to make a Faustian bargain for selfish reasons- paternal love for a child. While sympathetic, it was in some respects the moral equivalent of having a child needing an organ donor and murdering people until a matching donor was found- that's what the "whatever" in "whatever it takes" means. Harry is going to kill whatever he needs to kill, and allow whatever friends and allies need to die to die, to save Maggie. He might feel bad about it later, but he's quite clear that feeling bad later isn't going to stop him now. That's . .not a good choice, from a strictly moral perspective.
It worked out for him. Intentions do in fact matter, not just actions. If my wife is having a heart attack and I run a red light because she's dying on the way to the hospital, but then run over a pedestrian, it is neither legally nor morally the same as slamming on my gas when I see a pedestrian walking to run them over laughing. One is Murder 1: Deliberate and malicious homicide, one is negligent homicide or reckless endangerment- I knowingly took actions I knew *might* result in the death of someone but neither intended them to result nor planned for them to result. It's why such distinctions exist. In fact, that's the essence of the self-defense defense Harry has vs Justin- Harry did not want to kill Justin, he wanted to not-be-dead from Justin, which required killing same. No malice or enjoyment, the intention was self-preservation.
Harry annihilated the Red Court- and the heroic Fellowship of St. Giles. Good with the bad. He didn't do it for the war, or even to save his own life- in that respect, *not* selfish. He did it for his personal child- not all the children the Red Court regularly killed. It was personal.
"Buts" are justifications, not validations.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 10:12:50 PM ---Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you.
--- End quote ---
One, I don't care. Stupid laws are all over the place. You might even say that most of human history is a history of stupid laws, and lack of good ones. And two, something like and employer making unwanted sexual advances towards someone who knows they will be fired otherwise is not the same thing. Notice that I said, "for the reasons you gave here," and not "never compromised." I would also love to know how what Harry did qualifies as "sexual" harassment. If you think asking a person you know likes you to do you a non-sexual favor for legitimate reasons is sexual harassment, you have some funny ideas.
--- Quote from: noblehunter on October 05, 2020, 10:12:50 PM --- Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master. That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.
--- End quote ---
If you view Molly as an actual criminal (which I dont), then she is entirely responsible for her position and Dresden is not a fault here. Molly was going to be screwed anyhow since Dresden was going to be out of the picture regardless of whether she helped him or not. And Dresden agreeing to be Molly's mentor hardly deprives Dresden of his autonomy to save people he loves or quit frankly, do anything else he wants.
If you view Molly as not a criminal, but rather a victim of the pile of asshats that call themselves the WC, then Dresden is still not culpable. The White Council is responsible for both of them being in this position, so Dresden cannot be blamed for asking favors of her while she is under his Aegis. Dresden took responsibility for her when he did not have to. So she hardly has the right to claim he is abusing her if he asks her to do something for non-trivial reasons. Its not like Dresden is threatening Molly with with reporting her to the WC if she won't have sex with him or something. Dresden is acting to save his daughter and others. If Dresden were to die doing this, then Molly would be screwed under the doom. So by your logic, Dresden should never take any risks at all. Moreover, asking anything of Molly ever would be "harassment." In other words, you are basically arguing that Dresden is Molly's slave and is abusing her if he ever asks her for anything under any circumstances since it can be argued that she isn't there by choice.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you. Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master. That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.
--- End quote ---
He didn't harass her though, he did his best to keep her from going warlock. He didn't threaten or
coerce her into helping him. She was raised in a Catholic home, by devote parents, she received a Catholic education and no doubt is confirmed in the Church. She'd know exactly what Harry was asking, why, and that it was a sin to help him. She did it anyway, she is responsible for her part, she may not have thought it through, but she was not some silly dumb little girl not able to make a choice. You say it was his moral duty to override that desire, but how do you suggest he do that? She wasn't going to listen to an order not to go. He tried teach her what was right, she had her own ideas. If he locked her up or magically entered her mind to change it, he'd be guilty of other things.
He didn't suggest that she turn warlock by coming with him. Nor did he suggest she break the Laws of Magic by coming with him.
--- Quote ---Mira, we have the (almost) literal word of god that Harry's suicide was compelled by one of the Fallen. Ergo, asking Molly to help kill him can't be Harry's fault.
--- End quote ---
And it wasn't, nor was Molly's decision to help him anyone's fault but her own. She knew the pros and the cons of helping him, she may not have known the actual emotional price she'd pay for it. But that can be said for any critical decision we make in our lives.
noblehunter:
The point of bringing up sexual harassment is that adult's decision making is compromised when their teacher is asking them something. That's why professors aren't allowed to sleep with their students.
Your teacher shouldn't be asking you for sex and he shouldn't be asking you to risk your life and potentially go dark side. And an apprentice's master has even more authority over her than a professor or teacher.
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