The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 05, 2020, 11:04:07 PM ---Or one has an over active guilt complex,
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Sometimes and not always about the right things. His guilt about killing Susan was unnecessary but the guilt about Molly came far too late.
--- Quote ---and gives his apprentice absolutely no credit for making her own choices
--- End quote ---
Molly had her own responsibilities but that does not change Harry’s responsibilities. You are responsible for what you ask of people especially when you have a better idea of the consequences than the one you ask.
--- Quote ---whether they were right or wrong. Perhaps his choices were wrong, but he didn't force her to make the wrong choices, she did that on her own.
--- End quote ---
Nothing she did with magic was on her own. She was under the doom. Following the councils rules Harry was responsible, with his head, for everything she did.
Basically he asked her to commit near suicide for his benefit while he was responsible for her well being. Just saying that she was an adult is not enough.
That is the logic of a con man. You sell someone a bridge and you say things like she is an adult, she is responsible for her choices, she should have known, ...
There is a limit to that. You are always responsible for what you ask from someone. That does not cancel the other persons responsibility but Harry has responsibility too.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---“And much more,” Uriel said. “She still has her life. Her future. Her freedom. You did save her, you know. The idea to have her call to Mortimer in the closing moments of the psychic battle was inspired.” “I’ve cost her too much,” I said quietly. “I believe that when you went after your daughter, you said something about letting the world burn. That you and your daughter would roast marshmallows.” I nodded bleakly. “It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.” “Yeah,” I croaked. “I’m starting to realize that. Too late to do any good. But I get it.” Uriel gave me a steady look and said nothing. I shook my head. “Get some rest, kid,” I called, though I knew she wouldn’t hear me. “You’ve earned it.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Maybe you'll believe Uriel. This isn't about what Molly did or didn't do. The moral choice is Harry's. No moral person would ever ask this much of another. That she chose to do it doesn't change that. His sin was in ever asking.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 05, 2020, 11:21:20 PM ---You are always responsible for what you ask from someone.
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Uh no, that's why its called asking. Its a question you know.
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 05, 2020, 11:21:20 PM ---
Basically he asked her to commit near suicide for his benefit while he was responsible for her well being. Just saying that she was an adult is not enough.
--- End quote ---
Um...so where is the crime here exactly? Whats wrong with asking her to kill him? And yes being adult is enough. An adult is an entirely independent entity. And we have been over this, the mentor/apprentice situation is either Molly's or the WC's fault. Arguing Dresden is a slave to this situation is a total non-starter.
--- Quote from: Arjan on October 05, 2020, 11:21:20 PM ---
That is the logic of a con man. You sell someone a bridge and you say things like she is an adult, she is responsible for her choices, she should have known, ...
.
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A con man? What? Molly understood the risks well enough. And to boot, a person does not have a moral responsibility to give out information to their own detriment. It is one thing to tell you it is safe to walk through a curtain behind which is a cliff, and another to sell you an overpriced TV without explaining to you that you could get a better deal. The former is wrong, the latter entirely justified.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on October 05, 2020, 11:26:56 PM ---Maybe you'll believe Uriel. This isn't about what Molly did or didn't do. The moral choice is Harry's. No moral person would ever ask this much of another. That she chose to do it doesn't change that. His sin was in ever asking.
--- End quote ---
Please. We ask this much of people all the time. Or have you never heard of a military draft? Hell, forget a draft, by your logic we couldn't even ask for volunteers. Also I could really care less about what Uriel says or doesn't say. Uriel is right about some things and wrong about others, just like anyone else.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Nothing she did with magic was on her own. She was under the doom. Following the councils rules Harry was responsible, with his head, for everything she did.
--- End quote ---
Wrong, what she did in Turn Coat was done on her own. Under the Doom, Harry may have been held responsible for what she did, but what she did, she did on her own.
--- Quote ---That is the logic of a con man. You sell someone a bridge and you say things like she is an adult, she is responsible for her choices, she should have known, ...
--- End quote ---
To a degree that is true, that is why the con works. An adult should know that that famous bridge in Brooklyn would never be for sale.. However adults are not paragons of virtue either, they can be greedy and ignore the old adage, " if it seems too good to be true, then is more than likely is." Or as W.C. Fields would say, or maybe it was P.T. Barnum, "There is a sucker born every minute..." Adults will buy that bridge every time with their eyes wide open because they think there is something in it for them.
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