Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Mira]

Jim Butler was only 33 when Blood Rites came out.

I don't think Jim's age had much to do with how he structured the true love rules, I think he just didn't think it through.   You can be young and know what true love is, and you can be old and be clueless as to what it really is.  As I said, if the old posts still exist from the time Blood Rites came out, we went round and round on the subject.

I too was married for over 43 years until my husband died, and know that true love has nothing to do with sex.  Sex is fun, true love enhances it, but sex isn't the main component.  I think Jim came up with the idea, it fit perfectly into the story he was writing at the time and went with it.  Ignoring that one can have sex without love, one can be raped, one can truly love without sex, one can even be unfaithful for a lot of complicated reasons and still truly love one person, which as the series has gone on variations of these scenarios create problems for the story line.   And yes, it is possible that Harry still truly loves both Susan and Murphy though both are dead, and always will... So is he still protected? 

[Arjan]

I don't think Jim's age had much to do with how he structured the true love rules, I think he just didn't think it through.   You can be young and know what true love is, and you can be old and be clueless as to what it really is.  As I said, if the old posts still exist from the time Blood Rites came out, we went round and round on the subject.

I too was married for over 43 years until my husband died, and know that true love has nothing to do with sex.  Sex is fun, true love enhances it, but sex isn't the main component.  I think Jim came up with the idea, it fit perfectly into the story he was writing at the time and went with it.  Ignoring that one can have sex without love, one can be raped, one can truly love without sex, one can even be unfaithful for a lot of complicated reasons and still truly love one person, which as the series has gone on variations of these scenarios create problems for the story line.   And yes, it is possible that Harry still truly loves both Susan and Murphy though both are dead, and always will... So is he still protected?

I think true love is not enough, it is magic after all. It has to be confirmed with words or ceremony.

And while one can be stupid or wise at 33 I have learned some things in the 23 years after that. 

[Dina]

I think we are overthinking it. It's a convenient thing for literature, it has not need to be related with real life. And since book 1 JB established that in his world, sexual relationships are super powerful and magic related. So, perhaps we can accept the mechanics of True Love as he wants them to be?

[Arjan]

I think we are overthinking it. It's a convenient thing for literature, it has not need to be related with real life. And since book 1 JB established that in his world, sexual relationships are super powerful and magic related. So, perhaps we can accept the mechanics of True Love as he wants them to be?

There is also the ritual use of sex as with Mab and Harry.

[Dina]

Yes. I mean "since SF" but not "exclusively" from it.

[Mira]

There is also the ritual use of sex as with Mab and Harry.

It isn't that simple though, Harry had a sexual relationship with Luccio.. However it apparently was just sex, they liked one another, true.. Harry's feelings may have been real, but he admitted later not all that deep, her feelings were manipulated by Peabody, so no true love protection.. Though Harry did lose his protection.  So sex alone isn't enough to create true love protection, but sex alone with another is enough to break it..

[Dina]

Yes, we were talking about the power of the sexual act in the DF, not specifically about True Love (right now).

[Mira]

Yes, we were talking about the power of the sexual act in the DF, not specifically about True Love (right now).

But they are tied together.  As far as Harry and Mab doing their thing on the Faenetwork, the Winter Knight I believe is considered her consort, and the public sex act is the consummation of that bond.  This goes back to the custom in some cultures of displaying the blood stained sheets after the wedding night.  Proof that the marriage was consummated and now  was valid.  One of the excuses for a annulment verses a divorce, was the marriage was never consummated, so in other words, sex seals the deal, no sex, no real marriage..  It can be annulled, as in like it never happened.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Until I see it on the books, I won't believe it.

Distrust of WOJ. I like it.

It's a pretty convenient ward, if a ward it is.  Thomas banged his way through Dead Beat. That should have killed it. Yet by White Knight despite the fact that Thomas has been doing every "she" he comes in contact with, it means not one wit.

Thomas can fuck off his own ward, but it's not like ward of Justine is like ultimately dependent of his own. So Justine can stay faithful and keep True Love ward around. An anyway - if they go intimate it can be rebuilt for them both who knows how fast. After all Thomas was not burned by own True Love, but by Justine's - otherwise his own True Love would kill her.

Jim Butler was only 33 when Blood Rites came out.

Maybe that's why he changed his mind. (Or maybe because he decided it's kinda stupid considering anti-Skavis and anti-Malvora defenses are way way different.)

But then...

I think Jim came up with the idea, it fit perfectly into the story he was writing at the time and went with it.  Ignoring that one can have sex without love, one can be raped, one can truly love without sex, one can even be unfaithful for a lot of complicated reasons and still truly love one person, which as the series has gone on variations of these scenarios create problems for the story line.   And yes, it is possible that Harry still truly loves both Susan and Murphy though both are dead, and always will... So is he still protected?

With all those exceptions and stuff - somehow this original in many ways mechanical variant of protection were less baffling than going with true love in like philosophy area. But yeah I think ultimately reason for it was to estabilish way out for Inari, and way to torture Thomas a bit.
(Although I think sex without love as not-working was estabilished anyway).

I think true love is not enough, it is magic after all. It has to be confirmed with words or ceremony.

Ritualism. But then would Murphy/Dresden work on Lara?

I think we are overthinking it. It's a convenient thing for literature, it has not need to be related with real life. And since book 1 JB established that in his world, sexual relationships are super powerful and magic related. So, perhaps we can accept the mechanics of True Love as he wants them to be?

I generally agree. My problem in a long run is not connected that much to True Love being problematic concept - but rather than overall it makes mechanics of white vampires bit wonky. Fear-feeders are repelled by true courage, despair-feeders are repelled by true hope - but here we have convoluted wards of intimacy lasting for 7 years which seems to work quite differently. It irks my OCD and love of patterns in a bad way.
If there was no Skavis or Malvora - or if they all were sex-vampires I would care bit less.

[Mira]

Thomas can fuck off his own ward, but it's not like ward of Justine is like ultimately dependent of his own. So Justine can stay faithful and keep True Love ward around. An anyway - if they go intimate it can be rebuilt for them both who knows how fast. After all Thomas was not burned by own True Love, but by Justine's - otherwise his own True Love would kill her.

That's the problem though, Justine wasn't faithful.  She had sex with her girlfriend, true love protection went poof, then she could have sex with Thomas.  Rebuild it again? Then Thomas gets burnt all over again, and obviously for her to get pregnant they continued to have sex.  Just no true love scorching Thomas each time.. Justine isn't feeding off of Thomas, so his true love wouldn't burn her.  You'd think it would burn out the Hunger Demon, which supposedly if true love happens before the first kill, it can as was said about Inari.

[morriswalters]

Thomas can bang whoever but Justine is unfaithful. Right.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I mean - Thomas banging whoever would not dismantle Justine protection if we go with ritualistic sex explanation.
Intimacy between True Lovers estabilish Ward, but then  Ward is hold separately by both - so Justine has to break it on her own.

[Mira]

Thomas can bang whoever but Justine is unfaithful. Right.

I guess in the case of Thomas, he is feeding himself.  If he got as much nourishment as he needs to stay healthy, he could kill Justine or weaken her.  So he has to bang away, Justine, I think understands that.  Thomas isn't the one needing the true love's protection, since he is the one doing the feeding.. Here is more thing that proves he doesn't have it.  The Hunger Demon is feeding on his weakened body, right?  If he was truly protected by true love, wouldn't the Hunger Demon just burn itself out?

[The_Sibelis]

So Justine has had Nemesis for awhile, did nobody notice the true love thing stopped happening or has Nemesis actually managed to pervert the cosmic forces of love against reality?

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Both options are probable.

In case of Thomas feeding - I mean he does not need to fuck his dinner. You just need maintain skin-skin contact to empower lust within victim and suck life-energy concentrated like that from them.