The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Is Butcher changing the rules?

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Yuillegan:
I agree, and am not really questioning the stuff about Angels as much. It was more to illustrate the point.

It has been long discussed that in the earlier books Jim hadn't established the rules as clearly and did some soft retconning.

But the Outsider stuff is new. He Who Walks Before didn't change into ectoplasm on death, neither did Behind. I cannot recall one instance of an Outsider turning into ectoplasm.

I suspect Jim has lots of ideas both new and old) and has crossed some in his head. He has been writing this series for two decades now and has had a large break between this book and the last. Perhaps some things have gotten confused. I would like some explanation on why, and some rectifying of this apparent inconsistency.

vultur:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on July 21, 2020, 05:55:17 AM ---But the Outsider stuff is new. He Who Walks Before didn't change into ectoplasm on death, neither did Behind. I cannot recall one instance of an Outsider turning into ectoplasm.

--- End quote ---

I think they were present in a different way. HWWBehind in BR definitely possessed a human. So no ectoplasm involved. We don't see how HWWBefore is summoned in but IMO it's probably similar.

And these are heavyweight Outsiders, not just some minions summoned and bound into ectoplasmic bodies. It may be like the difference between Lasciel or Anduriel, and a "thug" demon like Kalshazzak (Victor Sells' demon) or Azorthragal (Kravos' demon).

Yuillegan:
Good point, they are higher tier entities. Different rules apply. Yet still not Old Ones...I wonder how that will work

But none of the lower level Outsider monsters have turned into ectoplasm upon destruction afaik.

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on July 21, 2020, 05:55:17 AM ---But the Outsider stuff is new. He Who Walks Before didn't change into ectoplasm on death, neither did Behind. I cannot recall one instance of an Outsider turning into ectoplasm.

--- End quote ---
Excluding the Walkers, have actually seen an Outsider "die" in the novels like we have with creatures purely from the Nevernever? Because that might make the Outsiders more consistent with the description of circles in FM because of their varying weight classes or other reasons as vultur points out.

(click to show/hide)I know we've seen the corner hounds and they've been mentioned already, but the title doesn't have a spoiler warning, and I'm honestly not sure of how long after PT has been released we need to keep doing spoiler warnings for it.

The_Sibelis:
This, is a complicated topic, so excuse me for thinking out loud a bit.. outsiders likely have different varieties and levels just like fae and other supernatural creatures. The Sidhe who are basically humans subsumed by mantles seem to be those who possess physical bodies upon death, but those same Sidhe also seem perfectly effected by a good ole magic circle without the extras. EK is a perfect example of this. He has by Woj the same level of mortality/power level as Santa, whom we know is just mantle. But then we have creatures like the fetches who clearly have no underlying body left when killed... But THEN we have the spiders from TC who do have physical bodies...I actually think the fetches were a special case, being older and more raw then your typical fae.
Angels I think come in two forms, the standard, incorporeal ones. Who I surmise are basically those who've died and found a spot in the heavenly order of things, and Archangels, who died but somehow did not stay dead, being possessed of both a human and an ethereal Grace, like Uriel(this is my line of reasoning on TWG>Jesus<Uriel btw). The Fallen are not Archangels, though perhaps they used to be, Lasciels "nearest to true form" being a Greek woman, Implies that before the fall that was whom she was underneath. Exactly what changed, I'm not sure. But by the same token,(hehe) the fallen now only act through the human host, this somehow Implies to me they are not complete without them. Lucifer I feel sure has a body underneath.. note, that Uriel (or maybe confabulating it with Woj) says they have precisely one choice, and going against cosmic law would make them fall, but they could still do it, Where as Lasciel seems to think they have no choice, she cannot on her own rise, and Lash only did so by, coopting human willpower..

Random tangent, if almost all supernatural creatures, residents of the NN and beyond, are considered on the scale of ghostly beings, then like ghosts, they are not supposed to interact with the natural world without it corrupting them. An I think we've seen that those who do all manage to do so by coopting human/ or at least mortal, will somewhere along the line.

Outsiders are simply the final layer, those things that are not only dead and gone, but forgotten to the point of non existence which they have somehow embraced as a crooked form of existence. Ghosts/zombies are reanimated by filling the impression they left behind, I think, as per Leah in GS, the universe has an impression of them left over echoing through existence that they are trying to fill, this is why Sharkface is described as not bigger than Mab metaphysically speaking, but infinitely deeper. He's so much older it's like comparing Sue to a basic old zombie.(although a zombie to an older zombie may be more appropriate) The impression is still the same size, it's just much deeper and ergo able to be filled with more, eventually.
So your typical outsider has no body, but Walkers I think were on par with Archangels, they used to have it and they want it back.(also outsiders need a human to give them the ability to be here, coopting again..) old Woj someone asked if Sharkface was what was left of Vittorio's body but Jim said he'd wished he'd thought of that. But that implies more human will to exist and take action. I think Walkers are looking for a living host that can bear them, someone they can Ride like the fallen do... And I think those who can do so might happen to be starborn.. at which point, walkers become Riders... I am momentarily spent of thoughts on the subject lol
Short answer, no. we just don't actually understand the rules well enough yet.

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