The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Is Butcher changing the rules?

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vultur:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on July 26, 2020, 12:13:18 PM ---This, is a complicated topic, so excuse me for thinking out loud a bit.. outsiders likely have different varieties and levels just like fae and other supernatural creatures.
--- End quote ---

Probably.


--- Quote ---The Fallen are not Archangels, though perhaps they used to be,
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Lucifer was an Archangel (and arguably is now a Fallen Archangel). The other Fallen were not.


--- Quote ---note, that Uriel (or maybe confabulating it with Woj) says they have precisely one choice, and going against cosmic law would make them fall, but they could still do it, Where as Lasciel seems to think they have no choice, she cannot on her own rise, and Lash only did so by, coopting human willpower..
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That's the deal with the "one choice". Lasciel (not Lash) already made her Choice and can't really go back on it now.

But I'm not really sure how this works in the Dresdenverse. It seems pretty clear from SG that Uriel *could* still Fall. The traditional understanding in Christianity is that the angels by now (well, to the degree that we can apply the word "now" to beings that are at least somewhat eternal) have all made their final choice one way or the other.


--- Quote --- I think Walkers are looking for a living host that can bear them, someone they can Ride like the fallen do...

--- End quote ---

Well certainly HWWBehind manifested through a human host in BR. So they can do that. But they might have other options too.

I think the Walkers are kind of the chief agents of the Outside in attacking the mortal world -- Lash in WN refers to HWWBehind as "a powerful knight". HWWBehind seems to be a super-assassin and HWWBefore a war captain.

huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on July 20, 2020, 02:10:13 AM ---So way back when we learn there are three types of beings:
1. The purely spiritual (demons)
2. The purely physical (Vampires)
3. The combined sort - Archangels, Loup-Garou etc.

What is interesting is that this hardly covers beings who exist in both worlds (like Faeries) or the fact that nearly every being has some sort of spiritual presence. In fact, I can't think of one being that hasn't so far.

The way Harry describes the third group is beings of significant weight, they can manifest real (not merely ectoplasmic) bodies.

So previously, Outsiders and Angels were in group three.

Yet in Peace Talks, he basically describes Outsiders as creating ectoplasmic bodies which is what makes them hard to come at. Yet that didn't seem an issue with Demons in previous books. More than that, when has any Outsider in the series turned to ectoplasm upon death?

Angels, on the other hand, seem almost purely spiritual. Only Uriel has actually seemed physical. The Denarian Fallen even only ever manifest through their hosts.

Naagloshii seem in category 3, as does beings like Ethniu. Ghosts etc seem group 1. Mab should be group 3, along with the rest of Faerie but it isn't clear why their bodies don't disappear on death. This is one of those bigger mysteries that Jim seems intent not answering (as someone asked for clarification on this and got none).

Mortals, Bigfoots, Vampires etc should be in group 2. White and Black leave corpses, but Reds I believe melt somewhat. Svartalves do leave corpses (hence Austri).

So which rules do these beings subscribe to and why suddenly do some beings seem inconsistent?

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Since book 10, it is already been shown that faeries are rather special. Those grufs leave corpses. So we can say that FM harry just gave generalize explanations and there are grey areas which Harry himself does not understand at the time or he just gloss over during the explanation. But this should not surprise us, the faerie realm, as the closest nevernever realm to the mortal world, are probably groups of supernatural being most compatible with the mortal world while still being part of the NN itself.

The spartalf and the Grendelkin aka the giant race like river shoulders seem to me to be a native of the mortal world similar to vanilla humans and wizardkind. They probably not part of the NN at all. So I do not think they fall to the 3 groups Harry explain during book 2. He was talking about spiritual being from the NN after all, not the native supernatual creatures of the material realm.

With the exception of the black court: Vampires, changelings and halflings are in the same group, which again not part of the 3 groups in my opinion. They are transformed humans or offspring of human and NN beings. Whampires can cross a circle for example, even though they have a demon inside. Rampires probably can't cross a circle if they go full vamp, but a rampire who has not killed before, like Susan for example, can cross a circle. BC vamps are practically zombies, so they fall into the 2nd group mentioned in FM.

The Denarians are another special case. The fact that 3 holy swords are specifically there to counter them show that the Denarians does not fall into the normal group. They are rule violators aka cheaters, and thus they have extra advantages. Skinwalkers like the Nagloshi and Goodman grey are most likely rule violators as well. They are being who due to some reason find a way to cheat the rules of the world. Even so they have to pay a price. Denarians are balanced by the KoTC. The Nagloshi cannot leave his natural habitat for long and Goodman grey has to pay rent. Also rule enforcers like Angels don't like them.

And then we have mantle holders like Mab, Molly, Vadderung and Harry for example. They also operate under different rules and has their own kind of restrictions.
Outsiders probably works under another set of rules. The fact that they can only be summon by a mortal wizard is already a restriction in itself. A restriction not suffered by your average demon from the NN. Book 8 show us that fobofages can be sent from the NN to the material plain and I believe that normal demons from the NN can be sent as well. Outsiders can't do this. They have to be summoned, by a wizard, which meant that non wizard but native magic users for example the spartalfs and the grendelkind cannot summon outsiders but they can summon demons.

So in conclusion, the rules does not change. It is just Harry is an unreliable narator. However JB did leave clues here and there throughout the series.

vultur:
I think the actual categories are:
- Beings with mortal free will, with or without magical powers or the presence of another sort of spirit (normal mortals; wizards and other mortal magic practitioners; Knights of the Cross, Faerie Knights, Denarians [at least those not totally taken over like Ursiel/Magog], etc.;  White Court Vampires; and before Changes, "half-turned" Red Court like Susan).

Magic circles of the usual sort don't work; thresholds can suppress the supernatural powers of these beings (e.g. Harry's magic or Thomas' wizard powers) but not stop the being from entering.

- Beings without mortal free will (most faeries, non-Fallen demons like Kalshazzak and Azorthragal, spirits like Bob, Red and Black Court Vampires, zombies and specters, etc.).

Magic circles block these beings; so do thresholds, unless they are strong enough to break through by force directly (like Kalshazzak against Harry's weak threshold in SF).

- Beings that don't fit neatly into either of those categories. Loup-garou have mortal free will, but not when they're actually wolfed-out. Angels/Archangels/Fallen don't have mortal free will, but they have some kind of Choice. Molly is a normal mortal wizard (not a changeling) with a Fae Mantle -- in PT she says she could technically go through a circle but it would fundamentally affect her so she won't try.


--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on July 27, 2020, 03:02:36 AM ---Since book 10, it is already been shown that faeries are rather special. Those grufs leave corpses.
--- End quote ---

I think most faeries do - at least the ones that are basically human-like that started out as changelings (trolls, nixies, gruffs, redcaps etc.) The Red Court Vampires also left corpses (that Butters autopsied), and they started out as humans. I think everything that starts as human or basically human (most faeries, the Vampire Courts, Denarians, loup-garou and hexenwolves, etc.) leaves a corpse.

The fetches are probably something special - my WAG is that they are halfway between regular faeries and full-on spirits like Bob (who used to hang out with the Winter Court, after all).

Not sure about the totally nonhumanoid fae which seem unlikely to derive from changelings - the giant bees in SK, shellycobbs in "Something Borrowed", giant spiders in TC, etc.

There might also be a separate path of development/promotion to Sidhe from Little Folk, with no changelings or humans involved.

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