The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Is Butcher changing the rules?

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Yuillegan:
So way back when we learn there are three types of beings:
1. The purely spiritual (demons)
2. The purely physical (Vampires)
3. The combined sort - Archangels, Loup-Garou etc.

What is interesting is that this hardly covers beings who exist in both worlds (like Faeries) or the fact that nearly every being has some sort of spiritual presence. In fact, I can't think of one being that hasn't so far.

The way Harry describes the third group is beings of significant weight, they can manifest real (not merely ectoplasmic) bodies.

So previously, Outsiders and Angels were in group three.

Yet in Peace Talks, he basically describes Outsiders as creating ectoplasmic bodies which is what makes them hard to come at. Yet that didn't seem an issue with Demons in previous books. More than that, when has any Outsider in the series turned to ectoplasm upon death?

Angels, on the other hand, seem almost purely spiritual. Only Uriel has actually seemed physical. The Denarian Fallen even only ever manifest through their hosts.

Naagloshii seem in category 3, as does beings like Ethniu. Ghosts etc seem group 1. Mab should be group 3, along with the rest of Faerie but it isn't clear why their bodies don't disappear on death. This is one of those bigger mysteries that Jim seems intent not answering (as someone asked for clarification on this and got none).

Mortals, Bigfoots, Vampires etc should be in group 2. White and Black leave corpses, but Reds I believe melt somewhat. Svartalves do leave corpses (hence Austri).

So which rules do these beings subscribe to and why suddenly do some beings seem inconsistent?

vultur:
The reference to three types of beings in FM may be from before the series' metaphysics was fully developed.

But even so, that was specifically a reference to how to make magic circles - it might not necessarily correlate perfectly to other things, like ectoplasm forms vs. physical bodies.


--- Quote from: Yuillegan on July 20, 2020, 02:10:13 AM ---Yet in Peace Talks, he basically describes Outsiders as creating ectoplasmic bodies which is what makes them hard to come at. Yet that didn't seem an issue with Demons in previous books. More than that, when has any Outsider in the series turned to ectoplasm upon death?
--- End quote ---

Well, HWWBehind in BR possessed a human body, so no ectoplasm would be involved. In GS, the flashback to Harry's first encounter with HWWBehind, there was a huge fiery gas-station explosion, so probably the question didn't arise. HWWBefore in CD turns into this weird flying cloth ball thing; I am not sure if he was possessing a human body, or if he wasn't really killed but just weakened, or what.


--- Quote ---Angels, on the other hand, seem almost purely spiritual. Only Uriel has actually seemed physical. The Denarian Fallen even only ever manifest through their hosts.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, DV angels are all-soul and use Soulfire. Uriel in SG was a very unusual special case; while physical, he really wasn't an angel then (temporarily). The Fallen who empower the Denarians are trapped in Coins and work through their hosts.

*except when they "break the rules" and reach out as Lasciel did to Harry; but even that was just a brief communication.


--- Quote ---Mab should be group 3, along with the rest of Faerie but it isn't clear why their bodies don't disappear on death.

--- End quote ---

Well, many of the fae, maybe most, are former changelings, half-human. So IMO it's not really surprising that there is some "real material body" left behind, not just ectoplasm.

Similarly for the Red Court Vampires - they are made out of humans, and leave physical remains behind for Butters to inspect...

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: vultur on July 20, 2020, 04:31:39 AM ---The reference to three types of beings in FM may be from before the series' metaphysics was fully developed.

--- End quote ---
This has my vote. Harry talks about the greater circle being able to contain an angel (maybe even an archangel, I don't have my book on hand) and demon lords. I think Jim's moved away from just about everything in those statements. I don't think a wizard has a chance of binding an angel in any kind of circle.

So to answer your question, imo, Butcher isn't changing the rules; he changed them a long time ago.

Snark Knight:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on July 20, 2020, 02:10:13 AM ---So way back when we learn there are three types of beings:
1. The purely spiritual (demons)
2. The purely physical (Vampires)
3. The combined sort - Archangels, Loup-Garou etc.

What is interesting is that this hardly covers beings who exist in both worlds (like Faeries) or the fact that nearly every being has some sort of spiritual presence. In fact, I can't think of one being that hasn't so far.

The way Harry describes the third group is beings of significant weight, they can manifest real (not merely ectoplasmic) bodies.

So previously, Outsiders and Angels were in group three.

Yet in Peace Talks, he basically describes Outsiders as creating ectoplasmic bodies which is what makes them hard to come at. Yet that didn't seem an issue with Demons in previous books. More than that, when has any Outsider in the series turned to ectoplasm upon death?

Angels, on the other hand, seem almost purely spiritual. Only Uriel has actually seemed physical. The Denarian Fallen even only ever manifest through their hosts.

Naagloshii seem in category 3, as does beings like Ethniu. Ghosts etc seem group 1. Mab should be group 3, along with the rest of Faerie but it isn't clear why their bodies don't disappear on death. This is one of those bigger mysteries that Jim seems intent not answering (as someone asked for clarification on this and got none).

Mortals, Bigfoots, Vampires etc should be in group 2. White and Black leave corpses, but Reds I believe melt somewhat. Svartalves do leave corpses (hence Austri).

So which rules do these beings subscribe to and why suddenly do some beings seem inconsistent?

--- End quote ---

I'm going with Harry is an unreliable narrator and was just wrong about a lot in FM.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on July 21, 2020, 02:44:16 AM ---This has my vote. Harry talks about the greater circle being able to contain an angel (maybe even an archangel, I don't have my book on hand) and demon lords. I think Jim's moved away from just about everything in those statements. I don't think a wizard has a chance of binding an angel in any kind of circle.

So to answer your question, imo, Butcher isn't changing the rules; he changed them a long time ago.

--- End quote ---
In changes Harry used a circle in his head for Uriel. Uriel was just too powerful for that especially in the state Harry was in but I see no reason why a stronger Harry could not hold a lesser angel.

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