Author Topic: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]  (Read 1161 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2020, 02:15:45 PM »
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Fear of rejection and guilt for not involving Harry in her child. It makes more aggressive people lash out to silence all objections. She was not blaming Harry for her own choices, she was trying to defend them and part of that was telling Harry some things. Hurtful things no doubt but that happens. It is a wild cocktail of emotions for both of them but bitterness is not the driving force.

Oh I think there was some resentment there on Susan's part, it is to be expected.  The key is Susan never even gave Harry a chance for input by not telling him that she was going to have a baby in the first place.  It is part of a pattern with her from the get go she always thought she knew better.  While it may be true that being around Harry can be dangerous,  Harry was always the one who tried to warn her about what was dangerous, stay away, and she ignored him.  Her logic about not telling him doesn't compute because it doesn't follow that Harry would insist that she and the baby come to live with him.  She never gave him the chance to help make that decision. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2020, 03:50:05 PM »
Oh I think there was some resentment there on Susan's part, it is to be expected.  The key is Susan never even gave Harry a chance for input by not telling him that she was going to have a baby in the first place.  It is part of a pattern with her from the get go she always thought she knew better.  While it may be true that being around Harry can be dangerous,  Harry was always the one who tried to warn her about what was dangerous, stay away, and she ignored him.  Her logic about not telling him doesn't compute because it doesn't follow that Harry would insist that she and the baby come to live with him.  She never gave him the chance to help make that decision.
Harry is not the beginning and end of all wisdom. You can actually disagree with him without being stupid, ignorant and, I can dot really translate the dutch word, opinionated pigheaded bad-ass cocky?

The point is she was acting on her motherly instincts and rationalized it later as we often do. And one of those instincts is that you know best how to raise your child even if you are wrong. It is one of the reasons parents fight. It is the reason she took that decision. It was wrong but certain kwalifications are just not fair.
 
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2020, 05:58:28 PM »
Harry is not the beginning and end of all wisdom. You can actually disagree with him without being stupid, ignorant and, I can dot really translate the dutch word, opinionated pigheaded bad-ass cocky?

The point is she was acting on her motherly instincts and rationalized it later as we often do. And one of those instincts is that you know best how to raise your child even if you are wrong. It is one of the reasons parents fight. It is the reason she took that decision. It was wrong but certain kwalifications are just not fair.

No one is saying that Harry is a paragon, at the same time Susan is claiming if she had told Harry about the baby he would have insisted that it remain with him.  That comes from her claim that the baby any one else is in danger being around him.   She didn't even give him a chance to have a say about a baby he helped create, also the assumption that he would refuse to listen to any reason that the baby would be better off with her.  However the truth is more like the baby was safe with neither of them.   Susan's motherly instinct to keep in contact may be natural and understandable, but the same goes for Harry as the father.   
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The point is she was acting on her motherly instincts and rationalized it later as we often do. And one of those instincts is that you know best how to raise your child even if you are wrong. It is one of the reasons parents fight. It is the reason she took that decision. It was wrong but certain kwalifications are just not fair.
 

Some motherly instincts, life isn't fair, not letting Harry in on the knowledge or decision isn't fair either.  I still don't think she made her decision solely on trying to keep the baby safe.  There were steps she could have taken that would have, difficult, very true, but she didn't take them.  No, her decision not to tell Harry was a lot more complicated that no one is safe around Harry.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2020, 03:51:43 AM »
Does he [Eb] feel bad about anything he did?
WoJ and Eb in BR implies he does.

Correct if I'm wrong, but wasn't Harry's falling into the cracks at least a little magical, or is that just an impression I got from 'Journal'?
I think it was explicitly stated.

In Eb's defense, he was born no later than the 1730's. He's going to have very different values than most modern parents. People routinely sent their children away to be trained by others when they were very young. Noble children were often raised as hostages. Hiding children probably doesn't seem like a drastic move when you grew up in those times.

The real problem is that you can't protect anyone from all danger. Every protection also brings its own unique dangers. I don't think coddle has any positive connotations for a reason.

Offline Dina

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2020, 05:08:48 AM »
Bad Alias, you are right in that, specially around War times. Eb has seen many.
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2020, 10:43:34 AM »
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In Eb's defense, he was born no later than the 1730's. He's going to have very different values than most modern parents. People routinely sent their children away to be trained by others when they were very young. Noble children were often raised as hostages. Hiding children probably doesn't seem like a drastic move when you grew up in those times.

I don't disagree with that, but that makes the rift between them all the wider. 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2020, 05:51:13 PM »
I don't disagree with that, but that makes the rift between them all the wider.
Yeah, in the Chapter 4 thread, someone mentioned a generation gap. It's more like a 10-15 generation gap; a generation being generally defined as lasting 20-30 years.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2020, 08:17:16 PM »
@Mira: I'd say that Susan was at least right about Harry not being willing to listen to keeping Maggie out of his life and that's why she kept it from him. But yeah she should have applied that principle to herself too.

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2020, 03:31:44 PM »
@Mira: I'd say that Susan was at least right about Harry not being willing to listen to keeping Maggie out of his life and that's why she kept it from him. But yeah she should have applied that principle to herself too.

She didn't know that though, did she?  It is something the two of them should have worked out together.   Also remember this is the guy who repeatedly tried to keep her safe, as in when he went after the Loop, stay in the car, that the party was a really bad idea, she is the one who didn't listen to him.  So if she was able to make a good case that the baby wouldn't be safe around him, I doubt he would have tried to fight her on it.  No, I think she was 1] afraid that if he really thought the baby was in danger because of him, it would be in just as much danger because of her and suggest a blind adoption.2] There was bitterness and resentment because of her plight towards Harry, real or imagined and she wanted to punish him by not telling him.

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2020, 03:38:30 PM »
Harry had the habit of keeping people safe by keeping people ignorant and telling them to stay out of it. That can backfire.
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2020, 11:58:07 PM »
Harry had the habit of keeping people safe by keeping people ignorant and telling them to stay out of it. That can backfire.

Very true, but his motives were still to keep the person safe. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2020, 07:13:06 AM »
Another thing to keep into consideration is that the Susan in Grave Peril and before is not exactly the same Susan as the one we see in Changes. They both learned a lot and they both got older. Their perceptions and priorities changed and they had true love, technically broken by Harry with Lucio but I do not think that made that much of a difference emotionally when they met again. That love must have colored everything they felt about each other.

So to understand Susan in Changes we must not look too much at the Susan before Grave Peril, that was very long ago for her, but look at the Susan in Changes. What that Susan drove was the same as what Harry drove, an all consuming wish to protect their daughter. She wanted to defend her actions, most of us do, but she mostly wanted that past out of the way as soon as possible to start what was really important.
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2020, 01:04:44 PM »
Another thing to keep into consideration is that the Susan in Grave Peril and before is not exactly the same Susan as the one we see in Changes. They both learned a lot and they both got older. Their perceptions and priorities changed and they had true love, technically broken by Harry with Lucio but I do not think that made that much of a difference emotionally when they met again. That love must have colored everything they felt about each other.

So to understand Susan in Changes we must not look too much at the Susan before Grave Peril, that was very long ago for her, but look at the Susan in Changes. What that Susan drove was the same as what Harry drove, an all consuming wish to protect their daughter. She wanted to defend her actions, most of us do, but she mostly wanted that past out of the way as soon as possible to start what was really important.

You are discounting the influence of Martin in all of this.  Remember he was a long time setting all of this up.  Susan felt she owed everything to him after she was turned, who knows how much poisoning he did to her mind to keep Harry out of it.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #58 on: Yesterday at 02:02:08 PM »
Very true, but his motives were still to keep the person safe.
In a broad sense he has kept Chicago safe, but his friends haven't fared all that well.  And the books would be dull if it were otherwise.

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
« Reply #59 on: Yesterday at 04:16:34 PM »
In a broad sense he has kept Chicago safe, but his friends haven't fared all that well.  And the books would be dull if it were otherwise.

That is also very true, however none of that absolves Susan from not telling Harry he was going to become a father in the first place.  Yes, no one can be more stubborn than Harry about most things.  However at the same time there is a humility about him, that is why he takes so much responsibility and guilt upon himself when things go wrong.   If Susan had told him and used good sound logic as to why the child was better off not being anywhere near him.  I believe Harry would have gone along with it, he may not have liked it, it may have given him more pain and sorrow, but I don't think he would have opposed her.