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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Regenbogen on June 24, 2020, 07:07:18 AM

Title: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Regenbogen on June 24, 2020, 07:07:18 AM
Reading chapter 4 of Peace Talks, a maybe not so wild idea formed in my head.
Those who haven' t read the chapter 4 yet or the micro fiction "Journal". Beware: SPOILERS
I won't spoilerize them here, because it's already noted in the title.


Here it is:

In " Journal" Morgan wrote, that he watched over Harry, but he was away for a short period of time, and when he came back, Malcolm was already dead and Harry vanished. No traces, not even magical ones.
Having read ch. 4 now and how Eb reacted to Harry not having Maggie in a safe house, but raising her himself, and the implications how Eb might have done it with his daughter, I had the idea:
Eb knew about Harry from the beginning. To protect him and watch out if he ever becomes dangerous (mysterious star born) he instructed Morgan to watch over him.
And he had Justin in his mind as a teacher, if and when Harry's magic came.
But at the time he planned that, he didn't know yet what kind of guy Justin really was.
Somehow he got the impression that Malcolm's death would be coming soon (I don't want to believe, he killed him, so let's just say, he knew Malcolm was going to die or at least in danger of being killed).
Eb created a situation that sent Morgan away, so that he would have time to let Harry disappear. He had the power to do so. He was and is the blackstaff.
He created the dissapearing spell that way, that Harry could be found (by Justin) as soon as his magic came. To be properly instructed.
Only it didn't work out the way he planned, because Justin was a black sheep. Now Eb feels guilty about that.

If Harry's magic never came, he would have stayed hidden and protected. The way he created the protecting disappearance spell, Harry was protected until he could learn how to defend himself with magic. Justin was supposed to teach him properly.

I think he did a similar thing to Maggie sr.
Protecting her by hiding her, until her magic came, and then instructing her himself maybe with Lea's help to enable her to effectively protect herself from now on.

What do you think?


Edit: Yes, I know, in the microfiction Morgan said, Margaret asked him to watch out for her son, but I think, Eb had Morgan watch out for Margaret in the first place and knew she was pregnant, so he arranged that he watched out for the kid after her death, too.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 24, 2020, 10:54:34 AM

   Possible, but it lets Eb off way too easy don't you think?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 24, 2020, 05:23:15 PM
Well I dunno about letting Eb off too easy. I was under the impression that magic was involved in keeping Harry hidden and in the foster care system. I could see Lea responsible for that, considering how she feels about teaching. Hey, maybe she's the one responsible for Malcolm's death. After all, Winter getting their own starborn would be a great feather in their collective cap.
I think both Eb and LeFay could have approached Morgan simultaneously w/o the other knowing it. Tho Eb really would owe Morgan one for that.   
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on June 25, 2020, 10:05:09 PM
Regen, I like the theory, it is not too farfetched. And I don't think Eb would be off, as in my eyes (and probably Harry's) he would still be guilty of not telling Harry who he was (I mean, once they have officially met)
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: g33k on June 25, 2020, 10:31:07 PM
... Hey, maybe she's the one responsible for Malcolm's death. After all, Winter getting their own starborn would be a great feather in their collective cap.

I'm pretty certain that Mab has been after Harry so long and so ardently SPECIFICALLY because he's a Starborn.  The Winter/Starborn anti-Outsider overlap is just WAY too huge a coincidence to BE a coincidence, where Mab is involved!  The utility to Mab of a Starborn Winterknight must be immense...  And thus, the presence of Mab's handmaiden the Leanansidhe is ALSO not a coincidence, it's BECAUSE of Harry being Starborn.  Thence back to the Margaret LeFay / Lea bargain, ALSO because Harry is (would be) a Starborn.

The causality -- in 20/20 hindsight -- is pretty glaring.

Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 25, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
Exactly! Though this does make me wonder about LeFay as a person.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on June 25, 2020, 10:49:27 PM
After what Eb said about how he protected his daughters I began wondering if Lea was involved in raising Margaret Sr since childhood.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 25, 2020, 10:50:38 PM
Huh, how would that have come about do you think?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on June 25, 2020, 10:53:49 PM
Not by chance. Winter knew she was the blackstaff child. Perhaps she was alone, read many fairy tale stories, asked for a faerie to come...
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 25, 2020, 11:18:27 PM
Ah ok, that makes sense. I wonder if Lea had to interact w/ LeFay in secret, b/c I don't think Eb would let LeFay near other faeries, so there's that rebellion element for yeah.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 26, 2020, 09:56:53 AM
Exactly! Though this does make me wonder about LeFay as a person.
Our view of the Sidhe is probably somewhat different from Margarets and she most likely wanted her son to be powerful.

And if she loved magic she wanted that for her son as well.

Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: morriswalters on June 26, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
And just where does Eb's wife come in to this?  Did she just up and let Eb take her baby?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: forumghost on June 26, 2020, 02:36:36 PM
And just where does Eb's wife come in to this?  Did she just up and let Eb take her baby?

Pretty sure Jim mentioned at one point that his Wife getting axed was what led to him hiding Maggie, so presumably she had little say in the matter.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 26, 2020, 05:26:06 PM
Yeah, that makes more sense. Though I can see Lea trying to insert herself into Eb and Margaret's life rather than Eb being desperate enough to turn to her for help.
Though that begs the question as to how Lea met Margaret in the first place.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 26, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Yeah, that makes more sense. Though I can see Lea trying to insert herself into Eb and Margaret's life rather than Eb being desperate enough to turn to her for help.
Though that begs the question as to how Lea met Margaret in the first place.
At one point in time Margaret became fully aware about how dangerous the outsiders were and she wanted to help. She also needed help after breaking with her previous associates.  Lea is in a good position for both.

And of course Lea wanted starborn. A heavy burden as she said in blood rites but also reality saving and magically satisfying.

But also keep in mind that Margaret understood the Sidhe in ways we and Harry don’t.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: morriswalters on June 26, 2020, 07:22:55 PM
Pretty sure Jim mentioned at one point that his Wife getting axed was what led to him hiding Maggie, so presumably she had little say in the matter.
Yeah, according to the timeline she either died near the birth or as much as ten years after.  Vague to the point of uselessness.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 27, 2020, 03:03:59 PM


 I think the reason Lea is Harry's godmother is because he is star born.  I think Mab and company had a lot to do with Margaret being able to pull it off in the first place,  I include Rashid in that as well.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on June 27, 2020, 10:19:06 PM
We will see  :)
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: SerScot on June 28, 2020, 01:40:24 PM
So, is anyone going to criticize Harry for calling Eb out for abandoning him to the foster care system, or, defend Eb’s choice to do just that?  Eb didn’t offer any defense his actions claim he couldn’t find Harry or any other such justifications that have been offered in our discussions over the years.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 28, 2020, 01:57:20 PM
So, is anyone going to criticize Harry for calling Eb out for abandoning him to the foster care system, or, defend Eb’s choice to do just that?  Eb didn’t offer any defense his actions claim he couldn’t find Harry or any other such justifications that have been offered in our discussions over the years.

Yeah, his only defense was it was to keep him safe.  Really?  Frankly that isn't a good enough reason for Harry, not considering what he suffered because of that.  Eb sort of admitted he messed up with Margaret, but only as far as his mentor-ship when she was his apprentice.  Eb still either doesn't get it or won't admit that what he saw as keeping his daughter and grand son safe, is rightly seen as neglect by both of them, and as Harry said, it didn't work out very well.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: SerScot on June 28, 2020, 02:07:56 PM
Yeah, his only defense was it was to keep him safe.  Really?  Frankly that isn't a good enough reason for Harry, not considering what he suffered because of that.  Eb sort of admitted he messed up with Margaret, but only as far as his mentor-ship when she was his apprentice.  Eb still either doesn't get it or won't admit that what he saw as keeping his daughter and grand son safe, is rightly seen as neglect by both of them, and as Harry said, it didn't work out very well.

Yes.

Eb seems to discount anything but supernatural threats.  If Harry were abused physically or sexually by foster parents was he “safe”?  Additionally, Harry disappearing from WC circles makes Eb safer from manipulation via Harry. 

So, I wonder who Eb was seeking to protect with his choice to abandon Harry?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Regenbogen on June 28, 2020, 03:52:34 PM
So, is anyone going to criticize Harry for calling Eb out for abandoning him to the foster care system, or, defend Eb’s choice to do just that?  Eb didn’t offer any defense his actions claim he couldn’t find Harry or any other such justifications that have been offered in our discussions over the years.
IMO Eb did what he thought was best for the survival of his family. The feelings of said family did not matter. So making Harry vanish from everyone he considered threatening at that time, did make sense, though his methods might not have been so nice. I hope he did not kill Malcolm, because I had the impression he thought M. was good for Harry. But not good enough to protect his grandson. It could be he killed him or arranged for him to be killed, but I don't want to believe that.

Harry's reaction in this chapter was completely understandable. OK, he went a bit far with the death threat.
And both of them could have been more diplomatic, but diplomacy seems to be missing in this family ;).
Let's say they both said things that were right about each other from their point of view, but they said them in a bad way.
I hope they talk a bit more later, including listening to each other.
I really would like to know if Eb was responsible for the bad parts of Harry's childhood and what he has to say about that, other than criticizing Harry's decisions.

I think Eb's choices regarding his family were to protect them. And he was showing a great deal of paranoia in it. But there was a reason for that, it wasn't completely wrong. I mean, Maggie Jr was targeted by the Red Court to get to him.

Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: SerScot on June 28, 2020, 04:06:28 PM
IMO Eb did what he thought was best for the survival of his family. The feelings of said family did not matter. So making Harry vanish from everyone he considered threatening at that time, did make sense, though his methods might not have been so nice. I hope he did not kill Malcolm, because I had the impression he thought M. was good for Harry. But not good enough to protect his grandson. It could be he killed him or arranged for him to be killed, but I don't want to believe that.

Harry's reaction in this chapter was completely understandable. OK, he went a bit far with the death threat.
And both of them could have been more diplomatic, but diplomacy seems to be missing in this family ;).
Let's say they both said things that were right about each other from their point of view, but they said them in a bad way.
I hope they talk a bit more later, including listening to each other.
I really would like to know if Eb was responsible for the bad parts of Harry's childhood and what he has to say about that, other than criticizing Harry's decisions.

I think Eb's choices regarding his family were to protect them. And he was showing a great deal of paranoia in it. But there was a reason for that, it wasn't completely wrong. I mean, Maggie Jr was targeted by the Red Court to get to him.

I’m not so sure.  I have, from time to time, wondered if Eb is the upstanding guy we want him to be.  Harry misjudges people, his instincts have been shown to be wrong. 

For example Hendricks, despite Harry’s impression of him is shown in the Marcone short story to be an intellectual who dislikes Marcone’s business but is loyal to Marcone for some other unspecified reason.

What if he’s wrong about Eb too?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Regenbogen on June 28, 2020, 04:19:12 PM
I’m not so sure.  I have, from time to time, wondered if Eb is the upstanding guy we want him to be. 
Oh, no! Yes, I have my doubts, too, but I really hope, he isn't.
What if Eb is a big evil asshole and the Merlin is actually quite nice and hates him and his ally/grandson because of that. Oh my. That would be.... Damn.

Edit: He has been the Blackstaff for a while and he has done things.
Does he feel bad about anything he did? For example dropping that satellite on Ortega's place and killing not only him but the humans around.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: SerScot on June 28, 2020, 04:33:52 PM
Oh, no! Yes, I have my doubts, too, but I really hope, he isn't.
What if Eb is a big evil asshole and the Merlin is actually quite nice and hates him and his ally/grandson because of that. Oh my. That would be.... Damn.

Edit: He has been the Blackstaff for a while and he has done things.
Does he feel bad about anything he did? For example dropping that satellite on Ortega's place and killing not only him but the humans around.

That... would be a very interesting story.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 28, 2020, 06:33:33 PM
Quote
I think Eb's choices regarding his family were to protect them. And he was showing a great deal of paranoia in it. But there was a reason for that, it wasn't completely wrong. I mean, Maggie Jr was targeted by the Red Court to get to him.


But how did it work out?  The thing is the very thing he did to keep them safe, ripped the family apart ending almost in total disaster..  It makes no sense at all, unless one buys that there is still something more complicated about it that Eb is still keeping from Harry.   However based on what he knows now, not just the pain and suffering he experienced, but what ultimately happened to his mother, Harry is totally right in raising his own daughter as he is.  Eb's argument for or excuses for doing what he did is a poor one,"keeping them safe" is way to vague, and comes out more like he couldn't be bothered. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Linnemir on June 29, 2020, 01:51:10 AM
I have been ambivalent about Eb for a very long time, and this just helped me crystalize why.

Eb is andhss been selfish, self-centered, and stubborn when it came to his descendents. Let's face it, babies and small children are a lot of time consuming work. Kinda hard to take off at the drop of a hat to  fulfill your wizardly duties when the baby sitter has already been eaten by a monster!

So he did it the easy way - hide Maggie Sr. And Harry until they were useful to him by using magic, and if they had no power? Well, they got along just fine without him, so why open a can of family worms?

My memory may be sliding, but other than taking Harry as an apprentice and Chicken Pizza, when did Eb actively help Harry with anything? He only got involved during CP after Harry mentioned the bloodline curse and Eb realized that he was in danger!

Sorry, but I just lost all sympathy for Eb when he was ready to repeat his mistake a third time!
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 29, 2020, 02:28:11 AM
Quote
Sorry, but I just lost all sympathy for Eb when he was ready to repeat his mistake a third time!

What really irked me was unless they showed talent he wasn't interested or seemed to care what happened to them. But come to think of it, he is the Blackstaff, the Senior Council's assassin would
be a cold bastard on top of everything else.  And yes, one can have all kinds of morals and values and still be a cold bastard.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on June 29, 2020, 05:34:00 AM
I’m not so sure.  I have, from time to time, wondered if Eb is the upstanding guy we want him to be.  Harry misjudges people, his instincts have been shown to be wrong. 

For example Hendricks, despite Harry’s impression of him is shown in the Marcone short story to be an intellectual who dislikes Marcone’s business but is loyal to Marcone for some other unspecified reason.

What if he’s wrong about Eb too?

Harry instincts have been wrong, yes, but he has soulgazed Eb. I don't think he is so wrong about him. Besides, Eb reaction to Harry's words were (IMHO) more like a caring parent who does not want to admit that what he did was wrong than like a bastard who does not care at all-
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 29, 2020, 09:05:36 AM
Harry instincts have been wrong, yes, but he has soulgazed Eb. I don't think he is so wrong about him. Besides, Eb reaction to Harry's words were (IMHO) more like a caring parent who does not want to admit that what he did was wrong than like a bastard who does not care at all-
But also a parent who can not properly start a discussion with his 40 year old grandchild. It is difficult because you will always see him as your baby but at a certain moment you need to handle him as an adult.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 29, 2020, 11:06:19 AM
But also a parent who can not properly start a discussion with his 40 year old grandchild. It is difficult because you will always see him as your baby but at a certain moment you need to handle him as an adult.

  That is a difficult transition, but he has had the last twenty years to attempt it, and he didn't. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: SerScot on June 29, 2020, 11:07:13 AM
Harry instincts have been wrong, yes, but he has soulgazed Eb. I don't think he is so wrong about him. Besides, Eb reaction to Harry's words were (IMHO) more like a caring parent who does not want to admit that what he did was wrong than like a bastard who does not care at all-

The Soulgaze isn’t a lie detector.  Eb’s priorities may sincerely be screwed up.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 29, 2020, 11:33:54 AM
  That is a difficult transition, but he has had the last twenty years to attempt it, and he didn't.
Because of another problem. How often in those last twenty years did they actually talk to each other? I do not think that much. If you do not see someone that often it is easy to fall into old patterns of behavior.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 29, 2020, 02:06:00 PM
Because of another problem. How often in those last twenty years did they actually talk to each other? I do not think that much. If you do not see someone that often it is easy to fall into old patterns of behavior.

  True, however if it is important, you make the time.  Especially in the light of how alienated Harry was after the first time he and Eb had that talk back in Blood Rites.  It took a while for Harry to forgive him for those lies.  They have to work together, lives are on the line, Eb should have made the time, for that matter so should have Harry.  You don't and you get the little explosions we saw in
chapter four, especially after the angry lecture on Eb's part..  Harry is bound to push back and push back hard because he is working off of limited facts and the emotion from all the pain he has suffered because his grandfather wanted to keep him, "safe."   Harry has to have the facts behind Eb's extreme measures to keep both him and Margaret "safe."  If he understood it would be a hell of a lot better for both of them.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Regenbogen on June 29, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
  True, however if it is important, you make the time.  Especially in the light of how alienated Harry was after the first time he and Eb had that talk back in Blood Rites.  It took a while for Harry to forgive him for those lies.  They have to work together, lives are on the line, Eb should have made the time, for that matter so should have Harry.  You don't and you get the little explosions we saw in
chapter four, especially after the angry lecture on Eb's part..  Harry is bound to push back and push back hard because he is working off of limited facts and the emotion from all the pain he has suffered because his grandfather wanted to keep him, "safe."   Harry has to have the facts behind Eb's extreme measures to keep both him and Margaret "safe."  If he understood it would be a hell of a lot better for both of them.
Agreed. They both should have talked long ago and they both didn't. But why? Because they are wizards? Because they are male  ;)? Because they are stubborn?

Stubborn: "No, I won't say a thing, until HE hasn't said anything." "Yeah. Me too." Silence. "OK. Bye."
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: g33k on June 29, 2020, 05:35:41 PM
Don't forget that Susan made the same exact choice, based on what she knew -- to bury Maggie in obscurity with a foster-family, rather than put her at risk in Harry's life.  If not for Martin's betrayal, that may even have worked out well!

And when Luccio learned of Maggie, she cautioned Harry that the secret needed to be buried incredibly deep.

So it's not just Eb having this impulse...  So I conclude it's a pretty common / common-sensical approach in the Dresdenverse.  (I grant you:  maybe not just ward-of-the-state rando-fostercare-placement).
 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 29, 2020, 07:10:16 PM
I think Eb's ideas of safety for his family was just on the supernatural side of things and it's just shows how out of touch wizards' society is when all the mortal/'vanilla' dangers aren't considered. I think that's the big reason why he's having so hard a time with what Harry's saying to him. Or at least it's a big factor in it.
Correct if I'm wrong, but wasn't Harry's falling into the cracks at least a little magical, or is that just an impression I got from 'Journal'?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 29, 2020, 07:36:36 PM
Quote
Don't forget that Susan made the same exact choice, based on what she knew -- to bury Maggie in obscurity with a foster-family, rather than put her at risk in Harry's life.  If not for Martin's betrayal, that may even have worked out well!

I am not totally convinced that was Susan's real reason.   Given what she was and what she was doing, it was pretty dangerous for her to have little Maggie around.  I am not sure she could get a baby sitter either on a moment's notice.  Given her bitterness towards Harry when they first meet up again in Changes, it was more to punish Harry by not telling him than a motive to keep little Maggie safe in my opinion.  If keeping her safe was Susan's real motive, she would have put her up for a blind adoption when she was born, then little Maggie would have been safely out of both their lives.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on June 29, 2020, 07:59:08 PM
@Mira: Yeah, it seems really weird Susan would keep Harry out of Maggie's life but not do the same thing herself.
Course the real reason is b/c if she did that then the plot wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 29, 2020, 08:33:50 PM
@Mira: Yeah, it seems really weird Susan would keep Harry out of Maggie's life but not do the same thing herself.
Course the real reason is b/c if she did that then the plot wouldn't happen.
She couldn't. It is maybe not rational or safe but very human.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 29, 2020, 08:52:17 PM
She couldn't. It is maybe not rational or safe but very human.
   Also very human for her to not tell Harry out of bitterness, blaming him for her predicament, not just being a half vamp, but pregnant as well. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on June 30, 2020, 06:57:33 AM
Both of them had unprotected sex, and she was the one not taking measures the day after.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 30, 2020, 08:51:35 AM
   Also very human for her to not tell Harry out of bitterness, blaming him for her predicament, not just being a half vamp, but pregnant as well.
How do you know it was bitterness? It is clear they never stopped loving each other. I see no reason not to believe her stated motivation, living around Harry is dangerous.

And a relation with a half vampire would be problematic. Problematic enough not to try it? You can disagree with Susan and still believe that is what she thought.

And now living around Susan was dangerous too. She saw it but she could not cut herself off from her child completely. That is how people are.

And yes she should not have taken that decision alone because it was not just her child but that is how a lot of women think and one of the reasons a divorce can be so problematic but the feelings are real. Which is totally different from the feelings are right.

Trust your feelings is not always a good idea.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 30, 2020, 11:03:06 AM
Quote
How do you know it was bitterness? It is clear they never stopped loving each other. I see no reason not to believe her stated motivation, living around Harry is dangerous.

Her accusations during their first meeting in Changes. Her words were full of resentment, she took no responsibility for her predicament.  She knew being around Harry was dangerous from Storm Front,yet she found it exciting and that very danger a key to her success, her decision to stick around.  She was blaming Harry because of what happened to little Maggie.  Now granted I imagine Martin was fueling a lot of this resentment for his own purposes.  Susan is a selfish being from the beginning, that is why things turned out the way they did, she finally realized that in the end. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 30, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
Her accusations during their first meeting in Changes. Her words were full of resentment, she took no responsibility for her predicament.  She knew being around Harry was dangerous from Storm Front,yet she found it exciting and that very danger a key to her success, her decision to stick around.  She was blaming Harry because of what happened to little Maggie.  Now granted I imagine Martin was fueling a lot of this resentment for his own purposes.  Susan is a selfish being from the beginning, that is why things turned out the way they did, she finally realized that in the end.
Fear of rejection and guilt for not involving Harry in her child. It makes more aggressive people lash out to silence all objections. She was not blaming Harry for her own choices, she was trying to defend them and part of that was telling Harry some things. Hurtful things no doubt but that happens. It is a wild cocktail of emotions for both of them but bitterness is not the driving force.

For what shows their feelings most they actually behave like a couple. They tell themselves all sort of reasons why they shouldn't but they do.

Even in their fights.

Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 30, 2020, 02:15:45 PM
Quote
Fear of rejection and guilt for not involving Harry in her child. It makes more aggressive people lash out to silence all objections. She was not blaming Harry for her own choices, she was trying to defend them and part of that was telling Harry some things. Hurtful things no doubt but that happens. It is a wild cocktail of emotions for both of them but bitterness is not the driving force.

Oh I think there was some resentment there on Susan's part, it is to be expected.  The key is Susan never even gave Harry a chance for input by not telling him that she was going to have a baby in the first place.  It is part of a pattern with her from the get go she always thought she knew better.  While it may be true that being around Harry can be dangerous,  Harry was always the one who tried to warn her about what was dangerous, stay away, and she ignored him.  Her logic about not telling him doesn't compute because it doesn't follow that Harry would insist that she and the baby come to live with him.  She never gave him the chance to help make that decision. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on June 30, 2020, 03:50:05 PM
Oh I think there was some resentment there on Susan's part, it is to be expected.  The key is Susan never even gave Harry a chance for input by not telling him that she was going to have a baby in the first place.  It is part of a pattern with her from the get go she always thought she knew better.  While it may be true that being around Harry can be dangerous,  Harry was always the one who tried to warn her about what was dangerous, stay away, and she ignored him.  Her logic about not telling him doesn't compute because it doesn't follow that Harry would insist that she and the baby come to live with him.  She never gave him the chance to help make that decision.
Harry is not the beginning and end of all wisdom. You can actually disagree with him without being stupid, ignorant and, I can dot really translate the dutch word, opinionated pigheaded bad-ass cocky?

The point is she was acting on her motherly instincts and rationalized it later as we often do. And one of those instincts is that you know best how to raise your child even if you are wrong. It is one of the reasons parents fight. It is the reason she took that decision. It was wrong but certain kwalifications are just not fair.
 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on June 30, 2020, 05:58:28 PM
Harry is not the beginning and end of all wisdom. You can actually disagree with him without being stupid, ignorant and, I can dot really translate the dutch word, opinionated pigheaded bad-ass cocky?

The point is she was acting on her motherly instincts and rationalized it later as we often do. And one of those instincts is that you know best how to raise your child even if you are wrong. It is one of the reasons parents fight. It is the reason she took that decision. It was wrong but certain kwalifications are just not fair.

No one is saying that Harry is a paragon, at the same time Susan is claiming if she had told Harry about the baby he would have insisted that it remain with him.  That comes from her claim that the baby any one else is in danger being around him.   She didn't even give him a chance to have a say about a baby he helped create, also the assumption that he would refuse to listen to any reason that the baby would be better off with her.  However the truth is more like the baby was safe with neither of them.   Susan's motherly instinct to keep in contact may be natural and understandable, but the same goes for Harry as the father.   
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The point is she was acting on her motherly instincts and rationalized it later as we often do. And one of those instincts is that you know best how to raise your child even if you are wrong. It is one of the reasons parents fight. It is the reason she took that decision. It was wrong but certain kwalifications are just not fair.
 

Some motherly instincts, life isn't fair, not letting Harry in on the knowledge or decision isn't fair either.  I still don't think she made her decision solely on trying to keep the baby safe.  There were steps she could have taken that would have, difficult, very true, but she didn't take them.  No, her decision not to tell Harry was a lot more complicated that no one is safe around Harry.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Bad Alias on July 01, 2020, 03:51:43 AM
Does he [Eb] feel bad about anything he did?
WoJ and Eb in BR implies he does.

Correct if I'm wrong, but wasn't Harry's falling into the cracks at least a little magical, or is that just an impression I got from 'Journal'?
I think it was explicitly stated.

In Eb's defense, he was born no later than the 1730's. He's going to have very different values than most modern parents. People routinely sent their children away to be trained by others when they were very young. Noble children were often raised as hostages. Hiding children probably doesn't seem like a drastic move when you grew up in those times.

The real problem is that you can't protect anyone from all danger. Every protection also brings its own unique dangers. I don't think coddle has any positive connotations for a reason.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on July 01, 2020, 05:08:48 AM
Bad Alias, you are right in that, specially around War times. Eb has seen many.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on July 01, 2020, 10:43:34 AM
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In Eb's defense, he was born no later than the 1730's. He's going to have very different values than most modern parents. People routinely sent their children away to be trained by others when they were very young. Noble children were often raised as hostages. Hiding children probably doesn't seem like a drastic move when you grew up in those times.

I don't disagree with that, but that makes the rift between them all the wider. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Bad Alias on July 01, 2020, 05:51:13 PM
I don't disagree with that, but that makes the rift between them all the wider.
Yeah, in the Chapter 4 thread, someone mentioned a generation gap. It's more like a 10-15 generation gap; a generation being generally defined as lasting 20-30 years.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: 123Chikadee on July 01, 2020, 08:17:16 PM
@Mira: I'd say that Susan was at least right about Harry not being willing to listen to keeping Maggie out of his life and that's why she kept it from him. But yeah she should have applied that principle to herself too.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
@Mira: I'd say that Susan was at least right about Harry not being willing to listen to keeping Maggie out of his life and that's why she kept it from him. But yeah she should have applied that principle to herself too.

She didn't know that though, did she?  It is something the two of them should have worked out together.   Also remember this is the guy who repeatedly tried to keep her safe, as in when he went after the Loop, stay in the car, that the party was a really bad idea, she is the one who didn't listen to him.  So if she was able to make a good case that the baby wouldn't be safe around him, I doubt he would have tried to fight her on it.  No, I think she was 1] afraid that if he really thought the baby was in danger because of him, it would be in just as much danger because of her and suggest a blind adoption.2] There was bitterness and resentment because of her plight towards Harry, real or imagined and she wanted to punish him by not telling him.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on July 02, 2020, 03:38:30 PM
Harry had the habit of keeping people safe by keeping people ignorant and telling them to stay out of it. That can backfire.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on July 02, 2020, 11:58:07 PM
Harry had the habit of keeping people safe by keeping people ignorant and telling them to stay out of it. That can backfire.

Very true, but his motives were still to keep the person safe. 
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on July 03, 2020, 07:13:06 AM
Another thing to keep into consideration is that the Susan in Grave Peril and before is not exactly the same Susan as the one we see in Changes. They both learned a lot and they both got older. Their perceptions and priorities changed and they had true love, technically broken by Harry with Lucio but I do not think that made that much of a difference emotionally when they met again. That love must have colored everything they felt about each other.

So to understand Susan in Changes we must not look too much at the Susan before Grave Peril, that was very long ago for her, but look at the Susan in Changes. What that Susan drove was the same as what Harry drove, an all consuming wish to protect their daughter. She wanted to defend her actions, most of us do, but she mostly wanted that past out of the way as soon as possible to start what was really important.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on July 03, 2020, 01:04:44 PM
Another thing to keep into consideration is that the Susan in Grave Peril and before is not exactly the same Susan as the one we see in Changes. They both learned a lot and they both got older. Their perceptions and priorities changed and they had true love, technically broken by Harry with Lucio but I do not think that made that much of a difference emotionally when they met again. That love must have colored everything they felt about each other.

So to understand Susan in Changes we must not look too much at the Susan before Grave Peril, that was very long ago for her, but look at the Susan in Changes. What that Susan drove was the same as what Harry drove, an all consuming wish to protect their daughter. She wanted to defend her actions, most of us do, but she mostly wanted that past out of the way as soon as possible to start what was really important.

You are discounting the influence of Martin in all of this.  Remember he was a long time setting all of this up.  Susan felt she owed everything to him after she was turned, who knows how much poisoning he did to her mind to keep Harry out of it.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: morriswalters on July 04, 2020, 02:02:08 PM
Very true, but his motives were still to keep the person safe.
In a broad sense he has kept Chicago safe, but his friends haven't fared all that well.  And the books would be dull if it were otherwise.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on July 04, 2020, 04:16:34 PM
In a broad sense he has kept Chicago safe, but his friends haven't fared all that well.  And the books would be dull if it were otherwise.

That is also very true, however none of that absolves Susan from not telling Harry he was going to become a father in the first place.  Yes, no one can be more stubborn than Harry about most things.  However at the same time there is a humility about him, that is why he takes so much responsibility and guilt upon himself when things go wrong.   If Susan had told him and used good sound logic as to why the child was better off not being anywhere near him.  I believe Harry would have gone along with it, he may not have liked it, it may have given him more pain and sorrow, but I don't think he would have opposed her.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: morriswalters on July 04, 2020, 05:14:12 PM
She could have aborted it and made life simpler for everybody.  She could have had her tubes tied before it became an issue.  Harry could have had a vasectomy.  Harry could have given up his magic so that being a father to Maggie wasn't an implicit death sentence for everyone involved.  Would of, could of, should of.  Had either one truly cared this would have never been an issue. That's the Watsonian view.

Now look at the Doylist view.  By implication Jim set up a condition where sex, for Susan, was a triggering event that would cause her to lose control and kill her lover.  He modeled that after the Black Widow or the Praying Mantis. He's now done this twice with a female character.  Consigning both women to what was effectively, enforced chastity.  Making them female eunuchs.  While old Harry just carries on.  This really borders on misogyny. Can you see that I might find it hard to see the character of Susan as abusing Harry by keeping secrets from him?
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Arjan on July 04, 2020, 06:47:58 PM
When you write a book in first person from one character point of view people are going to sympathise more with the narrator than with other characters in the book. All characters have their own point of view.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on July 04, 2020, 07:08:56 PM
She could have aborted it and made life simpler for everybody.  She could have had her tubes tied before it became an issue.  Harry could have had a vasectomy.  Harry could have given up his magic so that being a father to Maggie wasn't an implicit death sentence for everyone involved.  Would of, could of, should of.  Had either one truly cared this would have never been an issue. That's the Watsonian view.

Now look at the Doylist view.  By implication Jim set up a condition where sex, for Susan, was a triggering event that would cause her to lose control and kill her lover.  He modeled that after the Black Widow or the Praying Mantis. He's now done this twice with a female character.  Consigning both women to what was effectively, enforced chastity.  Making them female eunuchs.  While old Harry just carries on.  This really borders on misogyny. Can you see that I might find it hard to see the character of Susan as abusing Harry by keeping secrets from him?

I don't. That is something that I won't ever forgive Susan. And, of course, it was her decision to keep the first place. And himself has so little sex that he is a "functional eunuch" himself.

@Mira, speaking of Harry being as stubborn, I would add that Susan too, so I am pretty sure the brat will be stubborn as a concrete well. I pity the world once her powers awaken.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Regenbogen on July 04, 2020, 07:16:57 PM
@Mira, speaking of Harry being as stubborn, I would add that Susan too, so I am pretty sure the brat will be stubborn as a concrete well. I pity the world once her powers awaken.
I'm looking forward to reading this. Could be fun.
Seeing your own child acting like yourself. Can be pretty frustrating. Poor Harry.
(((((***evil laughter***)))))
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Dina on July 04, 2020, 07:29:01 PM
Precisely what I would hate to watch.
Title: Re: WAG McCoy [SPOILERS PT Ch4 + mf "Journal"]
Post by: Mira on July 04, 2020, 09:02:53 PM
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@Mira, speaking of Harry being as stubborn, I would add that Susan too, so I am pretty sure the brat will be stubborn as a concrete well. I pity the world once her powers awaken.

I don't doubt it! ;)