Author Topic: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT  (Read 1245 times)

Offline Dina

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[Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« on: March 26, 2020, 10:00:43 PM »
I just read this chapter today, so sorry if everyone already discussed this, but I am confused about what Thomas said. Particularly:
infertility? Problems for the babies? I don't get it. From BT and all the Inari story I got the idea that White reproduced normally and does not begin to feed until coming of age. Why the baby will be feeding from Justine? Why would there be infertility problems? Lord Raith has a lot of children, for instance.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 10:26:57 PM »
He's had centuries to have them. The infertility problems is probably, as a gamer would put it, a balance issue. If an immortal faction can reproduce at a rate equal to humans, they'd be way more powerful than otherwise. Not to mention they'd run out of food pretty quick if there wasn't another mechanism for keeping them in check.

The Hunger feeding during the pregnancy is another issue. It does go against what we know, but not to the point that it can't fit. Maybe that's how it hooks into the Whites in the first place. Then it goes into a dormant state until the host has matured enough to secure and consume "food."

Another problem is how come Justine's true love protection doesn't just kill the Hunger and maybe even the child.

A point I hope is taken into consideration is that pregnancy related deaths have drastically decreased in the real world.

Offline Dina

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 10:56:55 PM »
Well, nitpick. That is not "infertility", it's "low fertility". Low fertility is totally understandable, specially for monsters who are as sexually prone. If they had a high fertility rate, they would spread a lot, they would be difficult to remain hidden, for instance. And many other consequences. But infertility is unsustainable unless you transmit an infection like TWD zombies or the red vampires.

And yes, the hunger feeding while in uterus can be plausible. Remind me something. Justine has a "condition" that would make her perhaps more resistant to pregnancy that a normal human, right?

Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 11:57:42 PM »
Well what Thomas says is that WCV are "all but infertile" which isn't saying they ARE infertile - but have low fertility, as you point out.

Bad Alias's explanation makes sense to me, I wouldn't over think it.

Justine's protection not protecting her from getting pregnant is odd. My thinking is that it is a combination of them both being in love, Thomas not fully understanding why and how love affects his kind (he only has his father's explanation, but there might be more to it), and the fact her protection gets neutralised somewhat in orgies (as shown at the end of Ghost Story).

I think WCV children are actually more like Fae Changellings. They are scions (half mortal with the Choice to become one or the other). The "phage (the Hunger)" is either dormant or in waiting until they come of age (as shown with Inari etc) and then Choosing to either feed or fall in love before the first feeding. That was shown in that short story with River Shoulders I think. Like that being that bonded with the doll in the Butters short story, the Phage is waiting until it can bond to a host.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 12:30:02 AM »
I wouldn't over think it.
:o Isn't that mostly what we do here?

Honestly, that's kind of how I feel about your desire for an explanation of why does so much happen in Chicago, but sense I enjoy the back and forth, I just try to come up with probable answers. Mostly I just end up with possible answers, as I'm pretty sure the correct answer is, as Morris says, because Harry lives in Chicago.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 01:18:40 AM »
:o Isn't that mostly what we do here?

True dat! I forgot where I was.

Well the first chapter for instance of Peace Talks answers my thoughts about Chicago for this book i.e. that Baron Marcone (the first vanilla mortal to get onto the Accords) wants the talks held for his city. If Drakul had held them, perhaps they would have been in Europe etc.

But my broader contention is why is that the first vanilla mortal to get on the Accords (Marcone) just happens to be in Chicago, conveniently the same city as Harry? Why has no one succeeded in getting on the Accords before a Chicago Mobster? Why is it the Fomor's main base under Lake Michigan? If you were a cop, wouldn't that seem like too many coincidences to you? Maybe Chicago has special supernatural significance beyond the ley lines etc. Like how Earth is the only planet that matters in the Dresdenverse. As far as we know.

I still think Alera and Cinder Spires worlds are just other Earths in Dresdenverse.

Oh it's 100% because Harry lives in Chicago. I just would like a slightly stronger story reason (even if it was because the universe revolves around Harry).

Offline g33k

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 02:42:05 AM »
But my broader contention is why is that the first vanilla mortal to get on the Accords (Marcone) just happens to be in Chicago, conveniently the same city as Harry? Why has no one succeeded in getting on the Accords before a Chicago Mobster? ...

Well, it was because getting Marcone onto the Accords was all Harry's idea.  Harry needed a bribe, and couldn't afford to pay the kind of money that would interest Marcone.

So he came up with -- literally -- "an offer Marcone couldn't refuse."  Even if Harry had added "Oh, and 10 million in cash, small unmarked bills" Marcone would have said Yes.

I'd guess that no other mortals became signatories simply because none of them had the right mix of ambitions and a Supernatural sponsor who was used to "outside the box" thinking like this (Harry has remarked how conservative the old ones get).

I bet that before Harry made his pitch, Marcone had presumed that (as a mortal) he was locked-out of the Accords.
 
... Why is it the Fomor's main base under Lake Michigan? ...
  That is the base of "King Corb."  Presumably, he's outranked by "the Empress" (I'm now presuming she is also "the last Titan" of DF#17-BG), and I'm guessing HER court is in the ocean (Tethys looking AWFUL likely here).

Corb probably rules North America, and Lake Michigan is the biggest lake that's closest to the center of the continent.

Where ELSE would the Fomor King of America set up his Court?


Even more important, of course... Harry Dresden lives in Chicago!   ;D

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 02:58:54 AM »
Easiest one first. The Fomor are from everywhere in the oceans. What makes you say their main base is in Lake Michigan? Did I miss something.

Marcone survived most of his encounters with the supernatural, at least once the books start, because he is in the same city as Harry. Victor Sells would have likely killed him if not for Harry. Ditto all the werewolves. Maybe Bianca. Easily could have died from a plague centered on Chicago. I'm not sure how many would have died, immediately, from the Dark Hollow, but Marcone might have been one of them, he definitely would have his power diminished if the killing of Boney Tony went unanswered or he took on Grevane, his relationship with Harry is what gets him on the Accords in White Night, if you can't figure out how Harry helps Marcone in Small Favor, that's on you, Cold Days would have killed everyone in Chicago, and judicious use of Harry helps him elevate his position in Skin Game and then defend it once more in Jury Duty.

The point is, it's not a coincidence that the first wizard to advertise in the yellow pages and the first vanilla mortal to get on the Accords live in the same city. It's causal. Additionally, if Marcone was to maintain his level of threat to Harry, he had to level up with him. His relationship with Monoc Securities was how he did that. He may well have only been able to obtain that relationship because Harry was in Chicago, and Odin wanted to keep tabs on Harry. Vadderung himself suggests that.
Quote
Someone with enough foresight might, for example, arrange to be in a position to assist a hotheaded young wizard of the White Council one day. Perhaps who I am is directly responsible for why I am here.
Harry signs for Marcone. Vadderung signs because Marcone has a relationship with Marcone because of Harry. Lara signs because Marcone saved her bacon because of Harry. Marcone is on the Accords because of Harry. No coincidence.

Offline Mira

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 03:54:56 AM »

  I don't think Thomas likes the idea of fathering a vamp child.  I think he also fears becoming his father, Lord Raith.  Not that it is in his nature to be, but the key thing he said was most vampires are sterile.   As we know Lord Raith fathered many children, killed off all the males save Thomas, but not for lack of trying and dominated his daughters.  He must have feared a male that could reproduce would eventually challenge him.  I wonder now if Lara will see him as a rival? 

Offline didymos

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 04:03:42 AM »
  I don't think Thomas likes the idea of fathering a vamp child.  I think he also fears becoming his father, Lord Raith.  Not that it is in his nature to be, but the key thing he said was most vampires are sterile.   

No, that's not what he said:

Quote
“Yes,” Thomas said. “And my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway.”

"All but infertile" is not the same thing as "most vampires are sterile".  It just means they have children rarely given how often they, um, hook up.  But keep at it long enough, like over centuries of time, and the number of kids can add up.  In this case, Thomas and Justine just got lucky.  Or unlucky, as they might see it.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 04:06:29 AM by didymos »

Offline Dina

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 04:19:33 AM »
Yes, you are right, didymos, Yuillegan. I misread. It says "all but infertile" not "infertile". I my first reading I did not see the "but".

About the protection, as Bad Alias says, perhaps the vulnerability to love only appears when the host comes of age.

And of course all happens in Chicago because that is where Harry lives. It's like all crazy villains gathering in Gotham  :). But as many said, yes, Harry is one reason of Marcone's success.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline forumghost

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 06:40:25 AM »
Speaking of the near-sterility of Wampires, can I just take a second here to say I totally called it?



Unless there is some Biological Limitation on the White courts reproduction. Which is my personal theory, because otherwise there would be a lot more of them.

Offline didymos

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 06:52:01 AM »
This revelation about White fertility kind of throws a wrench in the "Margaret had Thomas on purpose" theory (not that Jim hadn't already thrown a wrench in it when he said Thomas was unplanned).  Kind of hard to pull off when your odds of getting pregnant are so very low. Also screws up the "Harry is really Lord Raith's kid" notion a bit. Again: hard to pull off when the odds don't favor you in the least.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 06:55:41 AM by didymos »

Offline Mira

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 01:04:17 PM »
Quote
"All but infertile" is not the same thing as "most vampires are sterile".  It just means they have children rarely given how often they, um, hook up.  But keep at it long enough, like over centuries of time, and the number of kids can add up.  In this case, Thomas and Justine just got lucky.  Or unlucky, as they might see it.

Yet, their numbers are very low, so probably most are sterile, the few that are not, become dominant.   It might also explain why Lord Raith's wives weren't vamps, perhaps two vamps cannot reproduce.  Also we know for example that a male donkey and a female horse can have a baby, it is called a mule.. Mules are sterile..  If that is the way with White Court Vamps, it is understandable why Thomas would believe he is sterile, thus thinking it safe to have sex without protection.. However consider who his mother was, Margaret was a wizard, that might be the exception to the rule. 
 

Offline didymos

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Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 04:20:16 PM »
Yet, their numbers are very low, so probably most are sterile, the few that are not, become dominant.

Pure conjecture.  We don't know that.

Quote
  It might also explain why Lord Raith's wives weren't vamps, perhaps two vamps cannot reproduce.  Also we know for example that a male donkey and a female horse can have a baby, it is called a mule.. Mules are sterile..
If that is the way with White Court Vamps, it is understandable why Thomas would believe he is sterile, thus thinking it safe to have sex without protection..

Thomas never believed he was sterile. Just "all but infertile", per the text. Also, they did take precautions:

Quote
I scowled. “I mean, weren’t you careful?”

“Yes,” Thomas said. “And my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway."
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 04:23:25 PM by didymos »