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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Dina on March 26, 2020, 10:00:43 PM

Title: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on March 26, 2020, 10:00:43 PM
I just read this chapter today, so sorry if everyone already discussed this, but I am confused about what Thomas said. Particularly:
infertility? Problems for the babies? I don't get it. From BT and all the Inari story I got the idea that White reproduced normally and does not begin to feed until coming of age. Why the baby will be feeding from Justine? Why would there be infertility problems? Lord Raith has a lot of children, for instance.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 26, 2020, 10:26:57 PM
He's had centuries to have them. The infertility problems is probably, as a gamer would put it, a balance issue. If an immortal faction can reproduce at a rate equal to humans, they'd be way more powerful than otherwise. Not to mention they'd run out of food pretty quick if there wasn't another mechanism for keeping them in check.

The Hunger feeding during the pregnancy is another issue. It does go against what we know, but not to the point that it can't fit. Maybe that's how it hooks into the Whites in the first place. Then it goes into a dormant state until the host has matured enough to secure and consume "food."

Another problem is how come Justine's true love protection doesn't just kill the Hunger and maybe even the child.

A point I hope is taken into consideration is that pregnancy related deaths have drastically decreased in the real world.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on March 26, 2020, 10:56:55 PM
Well, nitpick. That is not "infertility", it's "low fertility". Low fertility is totally understandable, specially for monsters who are as sexually prone. If they had a high fertility rate, they would spread a lot, they would be difficult to remain hidden, for instance. And many other consequences. But infertility is unsustainable unless you transmit an infection like TWD zombies or the red vampires.

And yes, the hunger feeding while in uterus can be plausible. Remind me something. Justine has a "condition" that would make her perhaps more resistant to pregnancy that a normal human, right?

Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Yuillegan on March 26, 2020, 11:57:42 PM
Well what Thomas says is that WCV are "all but infertile" which isn't saying they ARE infertile - but have low fertility, as you point out.

Bad Alias's explanation makes sense to me, I wouldn't over think it.

Justine's protection not protecting her from getting pregnant is odd. My thinking is that it is a combination of them both being in love, Thomas not fully understanding why and how love affects his kind (he only has his father's explanation, but there might be more to it), and the fact her protection gets neutralised somewhat in orgies (as shown at the end of Ghost Story).

I think WCV children are actually more like Fae Changellings. They are scions (half mortal with the Choice to become one or the other). The "phage (the Hunger)" is either dormant or in waiting until they come of age (as shown with Inari etc) and then Choosing to either feed or fall in love before the first feeding. That was shown in that short story with River Shoulders I think. Like that being that bonded with the doll in the Butters short story, the Phage is waiting until it can bond to a host.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 27, 2020, 12:30:02 AM
I wouldn't over think it.
:o Isn't that mostly what we do here?

Honestly, that's kind of how I feel about your desire for an explanation of why does so much happen in Chicago, but sense I enjoy the back and forth, I just try to come up with probable answers. Mostly I just end up with possible answers, as I'm pretty sure the correct answer is, as Morris says, because Harry lives in Chicago.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Yuillegan on March 27, 2020, 01:18:40 AM
:o Isn't that mostly what we do here?

True dat! I forgot where I was.

Well the first chapter for instance of Peace Talks answers my thoughts about Chicago for this book i.e. that Baron Marcone (the first vanilla mortal to get onto the Accords) wants the talks held for his city. If Drakul had held them, perhaps they would have been in Europe etc.

But my broader contention is why is that the first vanilla mortal to get on the Accords (Marcone) just happens to be in Chicago, conveniently the same city as Harry? Why has no one succeeded in getting on the Accords before a Chicago Mobster? Why is it the Fomor's main base under Lake Michigan? If you were a cop, wouldn't that seem like too many coincidences to you? Maybe Chicago has special supernatural significance beyond the ley lines etc. Like how Earth is the only planet that matters in the Dresdenverse. As far as we know.

I still think Alera and Cinder Spires worlds are just other Earths in Dresdenverse.

Oh it's 100% because Harry lives in Chicago. I just would like a slightly stronger story reason (even if it was because the universe revolves around Harry).
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 27, 2020, 02:42:05 AM
But my broader contention is why is that the first vanilla mortal to get on the Accords (Marcone) just happens to be in Chicago, conveniently the same city as Harry? Why has no one succeeded in getting on the Accords before a Chicago Mobster? ...

Well, it was because getting Marcone onto the Accords was all Harry's idea.  Harry needed a bribe, and couldn't afford to pay the kind of money that would interest Marcone.

So he came up with -- literally -- "an offer Marcone couldn't refuse."  Even if Harry had added "Oh, and 10 million in cash, small unmarked bills" Marcone would have said Yes.

I'd guess that no other mortals became signatories simply because none of them had the right mix of ambitions and a Supernatural sponsor who was used to "outside the box" thinking like this (Harry has remarked how conservative the old ones get).

I bet that before Harry made his pitch, Marcone had presumed that (as a mortal) he was locked-out of the Accords.
 
... Why is it the Fomor's main base under Lake Michigan? ...
  That is the base of "King Corb."  Presumably, he's outranked by "the Empress" (I'm now presuming she is also "the last Titan" of DF#17-BG), and I'm guessing HER court is in the ocean (Tethys looking AWFUL likely here).

Corb probably rules North America, and Lake Michigan is the biggest lake that's closest to the center of the continent.

Where ELSE would the Fomor King of America set up his Court?


Even more important, of course... Harry Dresden lives in Chicago!   ;D
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 27, 2020, 02:58:54 AM
Easiest one first. The Fomor are from everywhere in the oceans. What makes you say their main base is in Lake Michigan? Did I miss something.

Marcone survived most of his encounters with the supernatural, at least once the books start, because he is in the same city as Harry. Victor Sells would have likely killed him if not for Harry. Ditto all the werewolves. Maybe Bianca. Easily could have died from a plague centered on Chicago. I'm not sure how many would have died, immediately, from the Dark Hollow, but Marcone might have been one of them, he definitely would have his power diminished if the killing of Boney Tony went unanswered or he took on Grevane, his relationship with Harry is what gets him on the Accords in White Night, if you can't figure out how Harry helps Marcone in Small Favor, that's on you, Cold Days would have killed everyone in Chicago, and judicious use of Harry helps him elevate his position in Skin Game and then defend it once more in Jury Duty.

The point is, it's not a coincidence that the first wizard to advertise in the yellow pages and the first vanilla mortal to get on the Accords live in the same city. It's causal. Additionally, if Marcone was to maintain his level of threat to Harry, he had to level up with him. His relationship with Monoc Securities was how he did that. He may well have only been able to obtain that relationship because Harry was in Chicago, and Odin wanted to keep tabs on Harry. Vadderung himself suggests that.
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Someone with enough foresight might, for example, arrange to be in a position to assist a hotheaded young wizard of the White Council one day. Perhaps who I am is directly responsible for why I am here.
Harry signs for Marcone. Vadderung signs because Marcone has a relationship with Marcone because of Harry. Lara signs because Marcone saved her bacon because of Harry. Marcone is on the Accords because of Harry. No coincidence.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 27, 2020, 03:54:56 AM

  I don't think Thomas likes the idea of fathering a vamp child.  I think he also fears becoming his father, Lord Raith.  Not that it is in his nature to be, but the key thing he said was most vampires are sterile.   As we know Lord Raith fathered many children, killed off all the males save Thomas, but not for lack of trying and dominated his daughters.  He must have feared a male that could reproduce would eventually challenge him.  I wonder now if Lara will see him as a rival? 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 27, 2020, 04:03:42 AM
  I don't think Thomas likes the idea of fathering a vamp child.  I think he also fears becoming his father, Lord Raith.  Not that it is in his nature to be, but the key thing he said was most vampires are sterile.   

No, that's not what he said:

Quote
“Yes,” Thomas said. “And my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway.”

"All but infertile" is not the same thing as "most vampires are sterile".  It just means they have children rarely given how often they, um, hook up.  But keep at it long enough, like over centuries of time, and the number of kids can add up.  In this case, Thomas and Justine just got lucky.  Or unlucky, as they might see it.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on March 27, 2020, 04:19:33 AM
Yes, you are right, didymos, Yuillegan. I misread. It says "all but infertile" not "infertile". I my first reading I did not see the "but".

About the protection, as Bad Alias says, perhaps the vulnerability to love only appears when the host comes of age.

And of course all happens in Chicago because that is where Harry lives. It's like all crazy villains gathering in Gotham  :). But as many said, yes, Harry is one reason of Marcone's success.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: forumghost on March 27, 2020, 06:40:25 AM
Speaking of the near-sterility of Wampires, can I just take a second here to say I totally called it?



Quote from: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,40670.msg1996848.html#msg1996848
Unless there is some Biological Limitation on the White courts reproduction. Which is my personal theory, because otherwise there would be a lot more of them.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 27, 2020, 06:52:01 AM
This revelation about White fertility kind of throws a wrench in the "Margaret had Thomas on purpose" theory (not that Jim hadn't already thrown a wrench in it when he said Thomas was unplanned).  Kind of hard to pull off when your odds of getting pregnant are so very low. Also screws up the "Harry is really Lord Raith's kid" notion a bit. Again: hard to pull off when the odds don't favor you in the least.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 27, 2020, 01:04:17 PM
Quote
"All but infertile" is not the same thing as "most vampires are sterile".  It just means they have children rarely given how often they, um, hook up.  But keep at it long enough, like over centuries of time, and the number of kids can add up.  In this case, Thomas and Justine just got lucky.  Or unlucky, as they might see it.

Yet, their numbers are very low, so probably most are sterile, the few that are not, become dominant.   It might also explain why Lord Raith's wives weren't vamps, perhaps two vamps cannot reproduce.  Also we know for example that a male donkey and a female horse can have a baby, it is called a mule.. Mules are sterile..  If that is the way with White Court Vamps, it is understandable why Thomas would believe he is sterile, thus thinking it safe to have sex without protection.. However consider who his mother was, Margaret was a wizard, that might be the exception to the rule. 
 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 27, 2020, 04:20:16 PM
Yet, their numbers are very low, so probably most are sterile, the few that are not, become dominant.

Pure conjecture.  We don't know that.

Quote
  It might also explain why Lord Raith's wives weren't vamps, perhaps two vamps cannot reproduce.  Also we know for example that a male donkey and a female horse can have a baby, it is called a mule.. Mules are sterile..
If that is the way with White Court Vamps, it is understandable why Thomas would believe he is sterile, thus thinking it safe to have sex without protection..

Thomas never believed he was sterile. Just "all but infertile", per the text. Also, they did take precautions:

Quote
I scowled. “I mean, weren’t you careful?”

“Yes,” Thomas said. “And my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway."
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 27, 2020, 05:56:29 PM
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Thomas never believed he was sterile. Just "all but infertile", per the text. Also, they did take precautions:

  Which means he thought his chance of making babies was slim to none..  It may seem odd to those who haven't had fertility problems, but conceiving a baby isn't all that easy.  They didn't take that many precautions, if they had Justine wouldn't be pregnant..  But when you believe you are sterile, the precautions would be half hearted because, "why bother?"

Quote
Pure conjecture.  We don't know that.

Perhaps, but we also know that WCVs are not over running the planet, so they don't have the birthrate of humans.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 27, 2020, 06:33:19 PM
  Which means he thought his chance of making babies was slim to none..  It may seem odd to those who haven't had fertility problems, but conceiving a baby isn't all that easy.  They didn't take that many precautions, if they had Justine wouldn't be pregnant..  But when you believe you are sterile, the precautions would be half hearted because, "why bother?"
Unless the results of pregnancy were a 50/50 chance of dying.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Regenbogen on March 27, 2020, 08:23:10 PM
I am confused. I seem to remember that Thomas already told Harry of Justine's pregnancy before. Where have I read that?
And in the chapter he hears it for the first time. I thought he already knew. Weird.

Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 27, 2020, 08:45:16 PM
That's been know for years, since the first Chapter was a giveaway, way back when.

If Thomas took precautions he was smarter than Harry. :)
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 27, 2020, 08:47:40 PM
I am confused. I seem to remember that Thomas already told Harry of Justine's pregnancy before. Where have I read that?
And in the chapter he hears it for the first time. I thought he already knew. Weird.

A year or so ago more or less he did two I believe sneak preview chapters.  He has apparently reworked them a bit so while it is basically the same, it is also different.
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Unless the results of pregnancy were a 50/50 chance of dying.

In art as in real life, that doesn't always stop it from happening.  If I remember correctly Justine has always had some emotional issues that the White Court thing actually helped.  Anyway, it could be because she loves Thomas so much she wants to give him a child no matter the risks to her own health and the baby being born with a demon/parasite inside of it..  Then again a possible tin hat theory, we know that true love can burn out the demon,  maybe that is what Jim has in mind for either Thomas or the baby, or both?
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 27, 2020, 08:51:03 PM
That's been know for years, since the first Chapter was a giveaway, way back when.

If Thomas took precautions he was smarter than Harry. :)

Really?  Did he wear a condom every time?  ::) Oh I see, the one time he forgot or it had a hole in it.... :o   Let's not forget he was sure he was all but sterile, so he most likely relied on Justine to do what was needed..   Since Justine ended up pregnant, obviously Thomas isn't any smarter than Harry...
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 27, 2020, 09:15:08 PM
Yet, their numbers are very low, so probably most are sterile, the few that are not, become dominant.

Well, any that are absolutely sterile obviously never breed.  Eventually, they die (in such long-lived creatures, that may be a VERY long eventuality).

But that's using classical evolutionary biology.  I don't think it applies, "because magic."

I think Whamps just have a very-very-low fertility rate, and their Demon is to blame:  they CAN'T evolve to a more-fertile breed.

Where humans are, perhaps, 1 in 100 (ish) (per act of intercourse between a man and a woman in her "fertility window"), with Whamps maybe it's 1 in 1000000 or some such.  And remember:  because they feed through sex, whamps have a LOT of chances to breed!

Papa Raith fathered Lara & her two sisters, Thomas and some number (do we HAVE a number?  Let's guess 2-4...) of brothers, and Inari.  Let's call it 7-10 children, all told, across the centuries.

I don't think we have enough info, though -- canon stories or WoJ -- to be sure of ANY firm conclusions...
 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 27, 2020, 10:10:18 PM
Quote from Chapter 1:
(click to show/hide)
They didn't take that many precautions, if they had Justine wouldn't be pregnant.
In art as in real life, that doesn't always stop it from happening.  If I remember correctly Justine has always had some emotional issues that the White Court thing actually helped.  Anyway, it could be because she loves Thomas so much she wants to give him a child no matter the risks to her own health and the baby being born with a demon/parasite inside of it.
The text says they were careful. Justine is pregnant. I'll need a little more before I entertain the conclusion that they weren't careful.

Quote
If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they're 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren't perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective — that means about 15 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year.
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But no method or combination of methods is guaranteed to be 100 percent effective. The only guaranteed way to not get pregnant is by not having vaginal intercourse.
Planned Parenthood.
Quote
For perfect use of the male condom and pill, that’s 0.02 x 0.003 = 0.00006, or 0.006%. In other words, the combined method is over 99.99% effective when used perfectly.
https://www.mathscareers.org.uk/article/statistically-safe-sex/ (https://www.mathscareers.org.uk/article/statistically-safe-sex/).
99.994‬% to be exact given their numbers. Now if they have "typical use" efficacy, the failure rate is 12%.

To figure out the chance of Thomas and Justine getting pregnant, we would need to know how much less fertile Thomas and Justine are compared with the average couple and how much more sex they have than the average couple. (Or just the yearly fertility rate compared to a human yearly fertility rate). We don't know these numbers, but I imagine they favor the propagation of an existing species. We could try to look to the scene in Blood Rites where we see the mothers of Raith's children. The paintings fill up a library in a mansion starting in the 15 or 16 hundreds "steadily" progressing through fashions. None happening within "twenty or thirty years." Though we should note that there are only about 15 years between Thomas and Inari.

Then we have to take into account whatever the opposite of plot armor is into account. Once all that's taken into account, the chances of pregnancy, with perfect use of contraception, would be approaching 100%.

It's been two years and two months since Ghost Story when Thomas started feeding again. Justine has "seven and a half months" of pregnancy left. I'm assuming Thomas is going off of a nine month pregnancy. Therefore Justine conceived two years and two weeks after feedings resumed.

All that considered, I'd say it was statistically unlikely that Justine would be pregnant, but probably not anywhere close to statistically impossible.

@g33k: I believe Raith has more than four daughters. It's just that we've only ever seen three on screen and identified as such at one time.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on March 27, 2020, 10:32:44 PM
Mira, this time I agree with the others, the text says that Thomas took precautions, so I don't see any reason not to believe him.
But I am wondering about the chance of the baby being "cured" of the WV "parasite" due to True Love. I suspect this is probably the first time* a white vampire and a human are TRULY inlove. Besides, Jim always mentions how important it is the act of creating life, so I am sure this baby will be special.

*or one of very few times
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 27, 2020, 10:33:07 PM
@g33k: I believe Raith has more than four daughters. It's just that we've only ever seen three on screen and identified as such at one time.

Yes, he does (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/):

Quote
How many sisters does Thomas have?

I can’t find that notebook, grr. I think it’s nine. Papa Raith’s bodyguards minus one who is utterly bonkers and kept more or less in the attic, and Inari, the one who got away.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 27, 2020, 10:34:12 PM
I'm not making any more jokes. 

For the record Harry and his friends live in a deterministic universe.  The chances of Thomas having a baby are whatever Jim says they are. In this case the chances were 100 percent. Thomas never had a chance of not having that child. He could have worn a stainless steel chastity belt and Justine would still have got that child. It would have opened a portal and gone in through the Never Never.

Just adding perspective.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 27, 2020, 10:55:30 PM
I'm not making any more jokes. 

For the record Harry and his friends live in a deterministic universe.  The chances of Thomas having a baby are whatever Jim says they are. In this case the chances were 100 percent...

Oh, well.

If you're gonna pull out the big guns.

Party-pooper!



(n.b. I never made that silly "no more jokes" promise!!!   ;D )
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 27, 2020, 11:10:19 PM
 :-[
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 28, 2020, 12:31:43 AM
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Papa Raith fathered Lara & her two sisters, Thomas and some number (do we HAVE a number?  Let's guess 2-4...) of brothers, and Inari.  Let's call it 7-10 children, all told, across the centuries.

Which made him "king."  Consider though, were all his wives non-vamps?
Quote
Mira, this time I agree with the others, the text says that Thomas took precautions, so I don't see any reason not to believe him.

But he still could have meant that Justine took the birth control precautions, not him, he thought he was all but sterile..  Because of that I don't blame him, but I am not about to say he was smarter than Harry on the subject, until we know the type of birth control used.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on March 28, 2020, 12:43:14 AM
I mean, if Thomas said they took precaution we don't have any reason to believe he is lying, so it is more probable that it is true. Perhaps Justine lied to him, but in any case, he tried to take care, so at least he thought on that. Anyway, there are many differences with Harry's case. Harry was somehow until the influence of rampire spit and it was a "hot of the moment" thing, while Thomas and Justine are an stable couple that have a lot of sex on a regular basis, so of course they had time to thought about babies and making plans. But that is not all. IIRC due to the need to break the True Love thing and be able to have sex with each other they need to have sex with other partners. In that situation and due to STD it is more than probable than Thomas is effectively using condoms everytime, as it is the best shield for STD transmission.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 28, 2020, 12:49:37 AM
In that situation and due to STD it is more than probable than Thomas is effectively using condoms everytime, as it is the best shield for STD transmission.

While he may have been using condoms, it wasn't for fear of STDs.  White Court vamps aren't really vulnerable to them:

Quote
“Microorganisms aren’t a problem to my kind,” Thomas said. “As long as I don’t bleed out, I’ll be fine.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 286). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 28, 2020, 01:55:40 AM
While he may have been using condoms, it wasn't for fear of STDs.  White Court vamps aren't really vulnerable to them:

But they could become asymptomatic reservoirs.

We don't know.

I infer that it doesn't happen, because if the STD's of various kind WERE able to host inside a Whamp body, they'd become (because of their lifestyles) super-infectors (of all STD's... ever).  Like the STD versions of the uber-plague Nic tried to initiate.  And if THAT were to happen (a) all their prettiest pets would get infected and poxy and icky; (b) they'd have effective bioweapons to use against the White Council (infect their near and dear).

But again, we're getting into some inferred things; I don't think WoJ has delved deeply into supernatural STD's.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on March 28, 2020, 03:25:22 AM
While he may have been using condoms, it wasn't for fear of STDs.  White Court vamps aren't really vulnerable to them:

But Justine is.

Nevertheless, g33k makes a good point. If they could transmit the diseases, they would infect their human pets. So probably they directly kill the microorganisms.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 28, 2020, 03:29:49 AM
The way Thomas and Justine operate, I'd say there's a fair chance his anti std mojo would be insufficiently aggressive to protect Justine in all cases if they were careless.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 28, 2020, 04:40:31 AM
I mean, if Thomas said they took precaution we don't have any reason to believe he is lying, so it is more probable that it is true. Perhaps Justine lied to him, but in any case, he tried to take care, so at least he thought on that. Anyway, there are many differences with Harry's case. Harry was somehow until the influence of rampire spit and it was a "hot of the moment" thing, while Thomas and Justine are an stable couple that have a lot of sex on a regular basis, so of course they had time to thought about babies and making plans. But that is not all. IIRC due to the need to break the True Love thing and be able to have sex with each other they need to have sex with other partners. In that situation and due to STD it is more than probable than Thomas is effectively using condoms everytime, as it is the best shield for STD transmission.
I agree, but if he were, she shouldn't have gotten pregnant.  I just looked it up, apparently there is a one in fourteen chance of failure with condoms.  That whole paragraph is kind of weird though.  On what did Thomas base his notion that he was basically sterile?  If he believed that, other than fear of STD transmission why use a condom every time?  I still think that was the original bases for Lord Raith's power, he could reproduce where the rest couldn't.  Thinking back though the series, the White Court seemed to consist of families, and they were all related some how and rather small in number.  Remember the gathering where Toot's friends were enslaved and used as living lamps and Harry freed them?  If I remember correctly it was a gathering of all the clans and it only amounted to a hundred or so.  Lara hires vanilla humans as her muscle and guards, why when given their power and strength White Court Vamps would be much more effective.  Unless there aren't enough of them to do that.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 28, 2020, 05:41:32 AM
If I remember correctly it was a gathering of all the clans and it only amounted to a hundred or so. 

It was the three major houses: Raith, Malvora, and Skavis.  It's implied there are also some minor houses that haven't been named:

Quote
“It’s one of the greater Houses of the White Court,” I said, nodding. “Raith, Skavis, and Malvora are the big three.”

Butcher, Jim. White Night (The Dresden Files, Book 9) . Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

As to the number of vamps there:

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We entered the cavern and found it packed with pale and startled beings, the entire place a wash of beautiful faces and gorgeous wardrobes—except for twenty feet around the entrance, where everyone had hurried away from the blazing herald of our presence.

Butcher, Jim. White Night (The Dresden Files, Book 9) . Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

We then get a number on how many are seated, and that is about a hundred:

Quote
Furniture had been arranged in three large groupings, with a large open space in the center of the floor, and they were occupied by what I could only presume were the leading members of the three major Houses—somewhere near a hundred vampires in all.

Butcher, Jim. White Night (The Dresden Files, Book 9) . Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

There's some ambiguity there.  It may have been only a hundred total after all, or there may have been some vamps standing instead of sitting.  In any case, most of them were only the "leading members of the three major Houses", which would mean there were a bunch of Whites who weren't in attendance.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 28, 2020, 05:46:18 AM
I agree, but if he were, she shouldn't have gotten pregnant.
He did. She did.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 28, 2020, 03:50:28 PM
Quote
There's some ambiguity there.  It may have been only a hundred total after all, or there may have been some vamps standing instead of sitting.  In any case, most of them were only the "leading members of the three major Houses", which would mean there were a bunch of Whites who weren't in attendance.

Or in reality, there are not that many White Court Vamps..  Consider, they feed on emotion, sex is part of that, often until death if it goes that far..  So either there should be a lot of them, creating babies as they feed, or not that many because they are mostly sterile, and if they have sex it usually ends in death for the partner.   Say only Lord Raith is fertile in his House, he has had more than one wife in his long lifetime, while he only fathered one with Margaret, we don't know how many he fathered by his other wives, that adds up over the centuries.  Especially unless killed vamps live a very very long time. 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 28, 2020, 04:23:33 PM
Since they speak ancient whatever, assume 2000 years.  Assuming one partner a day times 3000 years. And then every time he beats the odds he creates a new potential breeder, assuming it breaks towards males.  So over time it adds up.  It looks like Lara's demon would consider a fetus as a competitor and kill it. So no baby Lara's.  On the other hand Wraith's strategy of killing male children is a birth control strategy in and of itself.  Thomas speaks to that point.

Certainly the same strategy that the Whites tried against the wizards would make a nasty suspicious mind like mine think in those same terms about the Whites. And if my guess was right it would be open season on the males of the White Vampires.  You know, sauce for the goose so to speak.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 28, 2020, 05:17:18 PM
Vittorio Malvora was the son of Cesarina Malvora according to the wiki. https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Vittorio_Malvora (https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Vittorio_Malvora). That was my recollection.

So either there should be a lot of them, creating babies as they feed, or not that many because they are mostly sterile.
There's no reason it can't be somewhere in between "a lot" and "not that many."

if they have sex it usually ends in death for the partner.
Uhm ... no it doesn't.

Say only Lord Raith is fertile in his House. 
He isn't. There's old whats his name from Bigfoot on Campus.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 28, 2020, 05:41:17 PM
Quote
Uhm ... no it doesn't.
Um, unless there is very good control, yes, it does..  This is how Lord Raith entrapped his kids, set them up so they kill their first sex partner.  However you are making my point, since this is how they feed, there should be a lot of little WCvamps running around, and there are not..

Quote
He isn't. There's old whats his name from Bigfoot on Campus.
Refresh me, the memory is vague, but was the talk about sex or reproduction?
Quote
Vittorio Malvora was the son of Cesarina Malvora according to the wiki. https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Vittorio_Malvora. That was my recollection.
Again, she was the head of that House, she might be the fertile one..
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 28, 2020, 05:50:31 PM
... He isn't. There's old whats his name from Bigfoot on Campus.
Also Madeline & Madrigal's father wasn't Lord Raith (their papa departed from an aircraft without a parachute).

Given that they're millenia-old sex-centric vamps, I think the sheer lack of numbers, and few instances of parentage, speaks to their low fertility.

OTOH, we have Thomas & Inari -- two of Papa Raith's kids born relatively close together (only 15ish years apart, I think; and SHE was born deep into Margaret's death-curse against Papa-Raith).  That would be a breeding rate of about 7 kids per century (so I suspect it was anomalous).

If we presume rough equality of M/F births, and taking the WoJ rough estimate that there were 9-10 Raith sisters (including Lara & Inari) that looks like 20ish offspring, all told.

That's a pretty low fertility... but NOT what I'd call "all but infertile" (which was how Thomas described it in the Ch.1 excerpt).
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 28, 2020, 05:52:42 PM
... Refresh me, the memory is vague, but was the talk about sex or reproduction? ...

There was a young white-court-virgin Raith proto-vamp.  She WASN'T papa Raith's; she had a different daddy in the story.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on March 28, 2020, 06:15:01 PM
This is how Lord Raith entrapped his kids, set them up so they kill their first sex partner. 

First feedings are always fatal.  The subsequent ones don't have to be.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 28, 2020, 06:15:51 PM
Um, unless there is very good control, yes, it does..  This is how Lord Raith entrapped his kids, set them up so they kill their first sex partner.
That wasn't the point you made or the one I responded to. You said a feeding usually ends in death. It doesn't. You're wrong. I seldom speak in such certainty on this forum because most things are speculative or there is at least an argument for it. You're simply asserting things that are contrary to the text with zero supporting arguments or evidence. You're just making stuff up. Which is fine. That's just headcanon or fan fiction. That's fine. I just think it's silly to suggest that one's headcanon or fan fiction is canon, unless the headcanon has some support somewhere.

However you are making my point, since this is how they feed, there should be a lot of little WCvamps running around, and there are not.
There are a lot of WCvamps running around. Enough to constitute a supernatural nation with major figures from major houses. With such distinctions being made, there are likely minor figures from major houses and minor houses with respectively major and minor figures.

Refresh me, the memory is vague, but was the talk about sex or reproduction?
I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. Whats his name from House Raith had a daughter. He wasn't Lord Raith. Sex is an integral part of any creature that reproduces through sexual reproduction.

Again, she was the head of that House, she might be the fertile one..
Morris suggested that all female Whites could be completely infertile. That was what I was responding to. I thought that was clear. Lady Malvora wasn't completely infertile. Therefore all female Whites are not completely infertile.

There was a young white-court-virgin Raith proto-vamp.
She wasn't neither a proto-vamp nor a virgin. That's kinda the point of the story. Not that it's germane to the current argument.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 28, 2020, 07:54:19 PM
Quote
Morris suggested that all female Whites could be completely infertile. That was what I was responding to. I thought that was clear. Lady Malvora wasn't completely infertile. Therefore all female Whites are not completely infertile.

She is also a head of a house, evidence of being a queen bee.
Quote
That wasn't the point you made or the one I responded to. You said a feeding usually ends in death. It doesn't. You're wrong. I seldom speak in such certainty on this forum because most things are speculative or there is at least an argument for it. You're simply asserting things that are contrary to the text with zero supporting arguments or evidence. You're just making stuff up. Which is fine. That's just headcanon or fan fiction. That's fine. I just think it's silly to suggest that one's headcanon or fan fiction is canon, unless the headcanon has some support somewhere.
Blood Rites page 158   
Quote
"What do you mean again?"  He spoke quietly, his eyes flat. "Inari.  He sent to you when saw you left my chambers."  "If he wanted me dead, why didn't he just come and do it.?""It isn't how the White Court fights, Harry.  We use misdirection, seduction, manipulation. We use others as instruments."  "So your dad used Inari."  Thomas nodded.  "He intended her to have you as her first."  "Um.  First what?"  "First lover," Thomas said. "First Kill."

Now on page 159
Quote
"Let me guess," I said.  "The first feeding is lethal." "Always," Thomas said.
Then...
Quote
"Why in the hell has anyone told her, Thomas? What she is? What the world is really like?" "We are not allowed," Thomas said quietly.  "We have to keep it from her.  It is my father's standard procedure. I didn't know when I was her age either."
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 28, 2020, 08:15:07 PM
Vittorio Malvora was the son of Cesarina Malvora according to the wiki.
Yeah, I guess so.  Semi immortal takes a 50 50 chance of death bearing a child.  Cesarina was a jewel of motherhood and Jim doesn't keep good track of what he writes.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 28, 2020, 08:20:48 PM
You've disproved a point no one made. No one here said the first feeding isn't usually lethal. You said feeding is usually lethal. It's not. Thomas explains why at the end of Turn Coat. Also, Thomas was wrong. Bigfoot on Campus proves that.

She is also a head of a house, evidence of being a queen bee.
Sure. Two heads of major houses have children. It's also confirmed that four other wcv have had children. Raith's brother, their parent because they're brothers, the guy from BoC, and Thomas. Additionally, the White in Jury Duty was "young" and had a human mercenary as a minder. Probably younger than Thomas and not Lord Raith's child or he was having children a lot more frequently than every 15 years.

Barrowill. His name was Charles Barrowill.

Yeah, I guess so.  Semi immortal takes a 50 50 chance of death bearing a child.  Cesarina was a jewel of motherhood and Jim doesn't keep good track of what he writes.
Thomas could have been looking at the survival rate of mortal mothers. I would imagine White mothers had a much lower mortality rate because they didn't have the "die from infection" rate that many real world mortal mothers had before we figured out germ theory. Also, they can feed to replace the energy stolen by the child's demon while a mortal mother couldn't.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 28, 2020, 10:35:17 PM
https://www.jim-butcher.com/pt-transcript

Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 28, 2020, 11:36:40 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on March 28, 2020, 11:51:59 PM
Quote
You've disproved a point no one made. No one here said the first feeding isn't usually lethal. You said feeding is usually lethal. It's not. Thomas explains why at the end of Turn Coat. Also, Thomas was wrong. Bigfoot on Campus proves that.

 In my opinion, you totally misread Thomas,  he has been fighting what he is for years..  That is what Margaret meant in the soul gaze between Harry and Thomas, that he is tired.   It is the point that Lara was making to him for years, humans are prey, kine, food..  The Skinwalker awakened that in Thomas.  Thomas up until then had been different, not wanting to feed until death...

But here is what he says at the end of Turn Coat. Page 413

Quote
"Then talk to me," I said, urgently.  "Thomas, Jesus Christ.  This is notyou." "Yes, it is, he spat, the words a bladed hiss. "That'swhat it taught me, Harry.  At the end of the day, I'm just an empty place that needs to be filled."  "I didn't want to kill those girls.  But I did it.  I killed them over and over, and I loved how it felt.  When I think back on the memory of it, it doesn't make me horrified." He sneered.  "It just makes me hard."

  He points to a woman and a child and says that all he sees is food, then he references tigers and how he feels.. page 414

Quote
"I'm. . . not wandering around blind anymore.  Not trying desperately to be something that I am not."  He looked back down at the tigers.  "Something I can never be."

He goes on to say that killing the kine every time would be stupid, but it goes against their nature.
So yeah, they will feed until death when they can... No problem.. When the Skinwalker mangled her guards, did Lara call an ambulance?  No, she ate well that night.. 



Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 29, 2020, 12:34:45 AM
It's still the exception.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on March 29, 2020, 01:38:55 AM
It's still the exception.

I don't think we know, either way... that they mostly DO feed until death, or that they mostly do NOT.

Personally, I'm slightly inclined to "not..."

I think fatal feeding is the Skavis & Malvora preference, and one of the things that House Raith dislikes in them.  If either were to become preeminent in the White Court, I expect fatal feedings would become the norm.

 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on March 29, 2020, 02:48:58 AM
There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

And this is covered to some degree in PG at the Fool Moon Garage.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on March 29, 2020, 03:25:40 AM
There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?
I doubt it, but that is undoubtedly an interesting idea.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: BrainFireBob on April 03, 2020, 11:00:03 PM
Few comments:

If female WCV are fertile, then they're having periods. Males are still superior in terms of 24/7 fertility. I rather suspect Papa Raith keeps a few other males around specifically so they can breed 24/7 if necessary.

Also, I have long suspected, given that WCVs are never White Council level, that their Hunger fundamentally feeds on their magic. Corollary; all WCVs would be at least Paranet-level talents if not for their Hunger. Those like Thomas who have some serious magic anyway- opening portals to the Nevernever, tracking spells- are the ones who would have been White Council level.

Further potential corollary; the stronger your gift for magic would have been, the stronger your Hunger. Thomas's is particularly strong; which tracks having a mother who was a wizard.

I would posit that without latent "talent", they simply don't survive conception. So their birthrate is constrained by this. Since additionally most of them don't use magic, their own talents wouldn't influence their offspring a la Charity and Molly versus Molly's siblings.

This would explain the following:

1) Why the WCV haven't tried going after the Paranet talents before- their elders are aware this is cutting off their own population.
2) Why Lord Raith was interested in the not-quite-sex-goddess Margaret Le Fay- she's guaranteed offspring.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Dina on April 04, 2020, 09:01:31 AM
I like many of that. I don't know if it is exactly like that, but I think you definitely are into something.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 04, 2020, 01:12:07 PM
There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

And this is covered to some degree in PG at the Fool Moon Garage.

   I think it is a bit more complicated.  The fetus is the host of the Hunger Demon, but since a fetus has no emotion, it's demon cannot feed upon it, so it feeds on the mother's emotions.  Apparently with a few exceptions, Margaret survived being pregnant with Thomas, the demon feeds to the point that the mother dies either in child birth or shortly after.   I don't think the child is born a full fledged vampire simply because a child, while it loves, usually doesn't have the kind of passion/sexual love for lack of a better way to describe it that it's demon feeds upon.  So like a lot of parasites and some other creatures, it goes dormant until it's food source becomes available, that is the first time it's host has sex.  Since the demon hasn't eaten in several years, it's hunger is such, it feeds on the person the host is having sex with until it dies.  That at least is my theory on how it works in House Raith, however we also know that in the case of other White Court Vamp Houses, the Hunger Demon parasite feeds on different emotions.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 04, 2020, 05:01:39 PM
As a wizard Margaret had more life energy than normal humans and she might have had a few tricks to get hold of even more power.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 04, 2020, 05:16:46 PM
    Apparently with a few exceptions, Margaret survived being pregnant with Thomas, the demon feeds to the point that the mother dies either in child birth or shortly after.   

It's not a few exceptions. It's about 50/50, per the chapter.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 04, 2020, 06:55:33 PM
It's not a few exceptions. It's about 50/50, per the chapter.

   Perhaps, but not a lot of children and their moms running about the Raith household either as per the whole series..  I can think of only one "child" ever mentioned and nothing of her mother.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 04, 2020, 07:24:07 PM
   Perhaps, but not a lot of children and their moms running about the Raith household either as per the whole series..  I can think of only one "child" ever mentioned and nothing of her mother.

It's not "perhaps". That's what the text says:

Quote
He swallowed. “According to the family records, just over fifty percent either don’t survive the delivery or die shortly after.”

As to not a lot of moms, most of Raith's children were born a long time ago.  They'd be dead of natural causes if they survived. As to Inari's mother, we simply don't know.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 04, 2020, 11:29:04 PM
Quote
As to not a lot of moms, most of Raith's children were born a long time ago.  They'd be dead of natural causes if they survived. As to Inari's mother, we simply don't know.

  Did they?  No one else seems to have had any children either.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 05, 2020, 09:21:55 AM
Did they?

Maybe. Maybe they died of disease. Maybe Raith ate them all up later.  We just don't know.  All we do know is about 50 percent of them survived having a baby vamp.

Quote
No one else seems to have had any children either.

And we know WCVs have very low fertility, so I see no problem here.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 05, 2020, 09:49:44 AM
Maybe Raith ate them all up later. 
Very likely. Raith wanted to indoctrinate and control his children in a very specific way. Mothers would only complicate things.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 05, 2020, 01:46:35 PM
Very likely. Raith wanted to indoctrinate and control his children in a very specific way. Mothers would only complicate things.

Question is,  other than Raith, who else fathered children in House Raith?   I believe early on it was strongly hinted that Lord Raith eliminated his male children.   Thomas has managed to escape most of those attempts, which makes me wonder if Margaret's curse has anything to do with that?  But aside from Thomas I don't recall any other male members being mention regardless of who may have fathered or mothered them in House Raith. 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 05, 2020, 04:06:13 PM
Question is,  other than Raith, who else fathered children in House Raith?   I believe early on it was strongly hinted that Lord Raith eliminated his male children.   Thomas has managed to escape most of those attempts, which makes me wonder if Margaret's curse has anything to do with that?  But aside from Thomas I don't recall any other male members being mention regardless of who may have fathered or mothered them in House Raith.
Madrigal is first mentioned as a cousin of Thomas in blood rites:

"I don't know," he said. "Guess I can do what my cousin Madrigal does: find some rich girl." He grimaced. "I don't know what to do."

So somebody else fathered the twins Madrigal and Madeline.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 05, 2020, 05:50:15 PM
Madrigal is first mentioned as a cousin of Thomas in blood rites:

"I don't know," he said. "Guess I can do what my cousin Madrigal does: find some rich girl." He grimaced. "I don't know what to do."

So somebody else fathered the twins Madrigal and Madeline.


Exactly, but they belong to a different House, don't they?  I mean while they are all White Court Vamps, there are differences.  The House of Lord Raith feeds off of emotions related to sex, the House that Madrigal and Madeline belong to if I remember correctly feeds off of fear.   While the term "cousin" means they are related, but to what degree?  Close, as in first or second, or is it more distant as in still related but it is several generations removed.   So was Madrigal and Madeline's father or mother a sibling of Lord Raith? Thus making them a close relation to Thomas or first cousin.. Or does it go back further as in perhaps a great great grandfather of Lord Raith, they'd still be related to Thomas, could loosely be called cousins, but not all that related.  It could account in the differences in what their demon feeds upon.. However it tells us very little about fertility and their breeding habits.. 

The information Thomas gives us in the chapter is 1] he made an assumption that he was most likely 
sterile.   Why would he make that assumption?  Logical to assume because most of his House or even White Court Vamps in general are..  However because obviously his father was fertile, he and Justine apparently used birth control.. 2] That Justine has a 50/50 chance of survival because the demon feeds off of the mother during pregnancy..  So half the the mothers die on average, do their babies and their demons die along with them?  If they do, that would severely limit the number of members in the House.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 05, 2020, 05:59:26 PM

Exactly, but they belong to a different House, don't they?  I mean while they are all White Court Vamps, there are differences.  The House of Lord Raith it is all about sexual emotions, the House that Madrigal and Madeline belong to if I remember correctly feeds off of fear.

No, Madrigal just hung out with Malvoras. He and his sister's surname was Raith:

Quote
Thomas grinned, but it didn’t touch his eyes. His gaze never left Crane. “Have you ever met my cousin, Madrigal Raith?”

Butcher, Jim. Proven Guilty (The Dresden Files, Book 8 ) (p. 218). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Also, that guy Barrowill from Bigfoot on Campus, despite the name, was also apparently a member of House Raith:

Quote
“I recognize you,” I said pleasantly to Barrowill. “You were at the Raith Deeps when Skavis and Malvora tried to pull off their coup. Front row, all the way on one end in the Raith cheering section.”

Butcher, Jim. Working for Bigfoot . Subterranean Press. Kindle Edition.

Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 05, 2020, 06:10:30 PM
Madrigal and Madeline are house Raith. Madeline feeds the same way as the other Raiths but Madrigal had changed his feeding habits and told Thomas he should do the same in Proven Guilty.

Madrigal was a Raith who was consorting with Malvora:

Quote
“I doubt my father cares,” he replied. “He wouldn’t mind losing a nephew. Particularly not one who has been consorting with scum like House Malvora.”

I do not know where it was mentioned but I believe I read in the books Lord Raith and Madrigal's father were brothers.

The whole interaction between Lara and Madeline in Turn Coat including Madeline having rooms in the Raith Mansion indicates they belong to the same house.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 05, 2020, 06:18:14 PM
I do not know where it was mentioned but I believe I read in the books Lord Raith and Madrigal's father were brothers.

Madrigal calls Lord Raith his uncle:

Quote
It took Madrigal a while to control himself and find his voice. “You’re dead,” he whispered, pain making the words quiver and shake. “You gutless little swine. You’re dead. Uncle will kill you for this.”

Butcher, Jim. Proven Guilty (The Dresden Files, Book 8 ) (p. 219). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on April 05, 2020, 09:35:21 PM
... I do not know where it was mentioned but I believe I read in the books Lord Raith and Madrigal's father were brothers ...

Isn't he (M&M's daddy) the one Lord Raith sent skydiving without a parachute?
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 05, 2020, 09:42:10 PM
Isn't he (M&M's daddy) the one Lord Raith sent skydiving without a parachute?
Yes he is. Also mentioned in proven guilty.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 06, 2020, 01:08:20 AM
The Raiths who have had children were previously listed in this thread. Lord Raith, Charles Barrowill, Lord Raith's brother (who was thrown from a plane), Thomas (if one wishes to count him), and presumably Lord Raith and his brother's father or mother.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 06, 2020, 01:55:17 AM
We can assume that the young Raith Harry encountered at Jury Duty was fathered by none of the above. Her power was too weak compared to that of of the big guns. There are probably rank and file weaker vampires who just get children. I do not think the royalties grip on their subjects is strong enough to prevent that anyway.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 06, 2020, 02:14:54 AM
Also, there's Felicia from Ghost Story.  Don't know whose child she is, but she's clearly from the Raith side of things.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 06, 2020, 03:43:11 AM
There are all those nobles in the deeps in white night. About a third of them were Raiths and most of them did not live in the Raith mansions but were guests. There were more lesser vampires not invited. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 06, 2020, 02:59:05 PM
There are all those nobles in the deeps in white night. About a third of them were Raiths and most of them did not live in the Raith mansions but were guests. There were more lesser vampires not invited. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg.

But still tells you next to nothing...  The Red Court Vamps numbered in the thousands, maybe more because they created new members via infection..  From your evidence the White Court Vamps may number in the hundreds or fewer, which considering their long life spans speaks with a very low reproductive rate..  Listen to Thomas, their general fertility rate is very low, otherwise why would he think he was more than likely sterile?  There is a 50/50 chance things won't go well when the mother get's pregnant because the embryo Hunger demon feeds off the mother..   Thomas is the son of Lord Raith which might increase his chances of not being sterile in spite of him thinking he was, so they used birth control.. Perhaps not with the care they should have because Justine still got pregnant.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 06, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
Or his demon played a trick. It could be that it wanted to procreate.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 06, 2020, 04:13:11 PM
Or his demon played a trick. It could be that it wanted to procreate.

Perhaps, or because he is the son of Lord Raith, or and I wouldn't be surprised if it is brought into
it at some point, true love.  Or back to my original point, it has something to do with Lord Raith wanting to kill off his sons, they can make babies like he can, that makes them a threat.  What I am getting at is I doubt that Jim would toss this in simply for melodramatic effect.   It might even take a few books, but I think it will be significant somewhere down the road..  Or here is a wild thought, from the trailer we know that Thomas is in significant trouble, is he injured enough to die?  Will he be executed or killed?  What is going to happen to Justine?  If she dies, who is going to raise the kid? Custody battle between Harry and Lara?  Just some wild thoughts in my self isolation...
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 06, 2020, 04:27:40 PM
Perhaps, or because he is the son of Lord Raith, or and I wouldn't be surprised if it is brought into
it at some point, true love.  Or back to my original point, it has something to do with Lord Raith wanting to kill off his sons, they can make babies like he can, that makes them a threat.  What I am getting at is I doubt that Jim would toss this in simply for melodramatic effect.   It might even take a few books, but I think it will be significant somewhere down the road..  Or here is a wild thought, from the trailer we know that Thomas is in significant trouble, is he injured enough to die?  Will he be executed or killed?  What is going to happen to Justine?  If she dies, who is going to raise the kid? Custody battle between Harry and Lara?  Just some wild thoughts in my self isolation...
Thomas story is not finished yet. We first will get some dramatic stuff about their mother.

So here is my theory:

I read nothing dramatic in it. Of course the white court is nearly infertile otherwise we would be drowning in them. The demon is the big difference between the white court and normal humans so the demon must make them infertile.

For the demon too a child is a big investment in the future. I think it invests part if its life force, its spiritual power in the new child. That is not something lightly done so I think a white court vampire only procreates when the demon agrees to it in some level. Knowing how Thomas demon thinks about Justine this is a no brainer. The demon wanted a child and had enough influence to subvert all precautions.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 06, 2020, 05:50:38 PM
Quote
Thomas story is not finished yet. We first will get some dramatic stuff about their mother.

Very true,  we do know a couple of things, Justine suffered from mental illness, being fed upon
has kept that in check, but I cannot remember if it cured her or not.  We also know she was willing to sacrifice her life to bring back Thomas when he was so severely hurt back in Blood Rites, and Thomas willing to jeopardize his full recovery by not feeding upon her until she died.  I still think "true love" will be a factor, as in possibly because Justine and Thomas have true love, their child was conceived in true love, not only will the demon not be able to feed on her, it will be burnt out trying.  Justine should be protected by the true love she feels for Thomas. Thus for the first time a child of a White Court Vampire will be born without the Hunger demon, truly breaking the cycle. Then again, Justine had sex with a girl friend to wreck her protection so she and Thomas could have sex. However a baby conceived in true love instead of lust might be different.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 06, 2020, 05:58:05 PM
Very true,  we do know a couple of things, Justine suffered from mental illness, being fed upon
has kept that in check, but I cannot remember if it cured her or not. 

She started taking meds when she started working for Lara:

Quote
“It doesn’t matter right now,” Justine said. “I’m better.”
“You aren’t crazy, are you?” I demanded.
“You nearly scratched my eyes out that one time.”
She shook her head with a frustrated little motion. “Medication. It isn’t . . . Look, I’m all right for now. I need you to listen to me.”

Butcher, Jim. White Night (The Dresden Files, Book 9) . Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

She may have stopped taking it though when she and Thomas started in again.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 06, 2020, 06:01:33 PM
why would he think he was more than likely sterile?
Because he didn't think he was more than likely sterile.

Then again, Justine had sex with a girl friend to wreck her protection so she and Thomas could have sex.
The trailer implies that she is protected again because they are wearing gloves. Does that mean the baby's demon can't feed? If so, does that mean it will wither and die?
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 06, 2020, 08:36:43 PM
Because he didn't think he was more than likely sterile.
The trailer implies that she is protected again because they are wearing gloves. Does that mean the baby's demon can't feed? If so, does that mean it will wither and die?

   There is a contradiction there because why else would he say he was more than likely sterile, unless he really thought it?  What underscores that actually is the botched job on the birth control.  I am not saying that birth control cannot fail, it can, and does on occasion.  However if you think you are sterile you less likely to carefully follow all the instructions as you should perhaps. 

I didn't notice her wearing gloves, will have to go back and look.  Obviously she wasn't protected when she got pregnant, but getting pregnant from an act of true love verses lust may have restore her protection.
Quote
She started taking meds when she started working for Lara:

Yes, but I believe she had been taking meds all along but they weren't helping as they should.  The act Thomas feeding drained off her excess emotions and cured her severe mood swings if I remember correctly from Storm Front or one of the other early books.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 06, 2020, 08:57:54 PM
   There is a contradiction there because why else would he say he was more than likely sterile, unless he really thought it? 

He never said that. Again, here's the quote:

Quote
“Yes,” Thomas said. “And my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway.”


Quote
Yes, but I believe she had been taking meds all along but they weren't helping as they should.  The act Thomas feeding drained off her excess emotions and cured her severe mood swings if I remember correctly from Storm Front or one of the other early books.

It was Grave Peril where we meet her.  And she said she wasn't taking meds back then:

Quote
“Yes. Yes, Thomas. He makes it quieter. Inside me, there’s so much trying to get out, like at the hospital. Control, they said. I don’t have the kind of control other people have. It’s hormones, but the drugs only made me sick. He doesn’t, though. Only a little tired.”

Grave Peril (The Dresden Files, Book 3) (p. 384). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Apparently, Lara got her better ones.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on April 06, 2020, 09:34:52 PM
I will pledge some token amount if Jim will promise to take a class on reproductive biology.  If he wants to say that Whites have a low reproductive  rate he should just say so.  Carry on.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on April 06, 2020, 10:42:55 PM
...  If he wants to say that Whites have a low reproductive  rate he should just say so ...

Ummm.
He did?
Quote
... my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway.

I mean, it's in-character stuff, so Thomas may have been lied-to, or be lying to Harry, or other sort of misinformation.

If it had been WoJ'ed (in an AMA or 'Con panel) or something, I guess it'd be "more reliable"?
 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Yuillegan on April 06, 2020, 11:49:18 PM
Does that mean the baby's demon can't feed? If so, does that mean it will wither and die?

Why can't the baby feed like a regular human baby? White Court Vampires are essentially mortal until they come of age (presumably 18, but I can't remember if that was explicitly stated) and feed, which I imagine summons the phage part of themselves that attaches itself to them. I suspect that this also quite probably occurs during the first time the WCV loses it's virginity, and knowing Jim this would only count if it was penetrative vaginal intercourse. I wonder how this accounts for underage sex and/or sexual abuse? Or gay vampires for that matter (assuming such a thing exists - it more than likely should with sex-vampires but who knows in the Dresden Files).

I also think everyone is getting too hung up on Thomas' (Jim's) choice of phrase. Little character intention 101: the line is less about the words used, and more about the thought behind it. The intention is clear i.e. that WCV can have babies BUT mostly do not because of biological and/or supernatural factors. Whether Thomas is telling the truth or is simply misinformed is an entirely different argument - and impossible to answer without more information.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 07, 2020, 12:43:35 AM
Why can't the baby feed like a regular human baby?
Because it doesn't?
Quote
Except that the baby’s Hunger will draw life energy from Justine. She’s going to be fed upon continuously for the next seven and a half months.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 07, 2020, 04:01:16 AM
Quote
Why can't the baby feed like a regular human baby

   We are talking about the fetus inside the placenta.  The fetus will get it's food like any normal fetus, the Hunger demon inside the fetus also has to have something to eat, so it feeds off of mom's emotions while she is carrying the baby. 
Quote
Quote

    “Yes,” Thomas said. “And my kind are all but infertile to boot. Happened anyway.”

Which means he had very good reason to believe he was sterile...  In other words a very low sperm count..
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 07, 2020, 05:53:43 AM
Which means he had very good reason to believe he was sterile... 

No, it means he had good reason to believe he was all but infertile.  Not the same thing.

Quote
In other words a very low sperm count..

We don't know that that is how the Hunger affects fertility.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Yuillegan on April 07, 2020, 06:00:43 AM
Because it doesn't?

Quote
Except that the baby’s Hunger will draw life energy from Justine. She’s going to be fed upon continuously for the next seven and a half months.

1. Just another example of Jim adding in information when it suits, retconning previously established canon.
2. WCV eat emotion, they choose which one based on the house they are raised in generally. But in Blood Rites it is explained that it is usually during sex (Thomas even says rape is the traditional way to settle differences in the Houses of the White Court). I guess you all will say that it just feeds on the Mother's emotions during it's formation. So what does it feed on once it is born? As established previously, WCV don't actually become their full selves until they feed for the first time. And if you say well that's because they don't need to feed before that transformation, well then why do they feed in the womb? And you can't argue they feed of their own emotions, otherwise the White Court wouldn't need to feed on humans.
3. So back to the argument. The baby, underdeveloped WCV feeds on just ambient emotion from the Mother. It then either A) stops feeding until it's first feeding at 18 or B) it somehow feeds itself one way for 18 years then suddenly changes that entirely and completely changes form into a full blown WCV.

The whole thing would be much simpler if Jim hadn't broken his own rules and the baby was just a pretty normal baby and fed like a regular baby.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 07, 2020, 06:02:13 AM
1. Just another example of Jim adding in information when it suits, retconning previously established canon.

What was the previously established canon?  I don't recall anything being said about WCV pregnancies. 

BTW, this info about WC pregnancies isn't new.  Jim told us about it back in 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gmu76ritoQ&t=3586
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 07, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
Thomas the hairdresser only needed intimacy.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on April 07, 2020, 11:32:15 AM
1. Just another example of Jim adding in information when it suits, retconning previously established canon.

Except there is no prior canon on fetal WCV's.

Biologically, there's critical developmental stuff happening; it makes some sense that the same might be true of the Whamp-Demon.

Of course, there's ALSO a bunch of critical biological development that happens between birth and puberty...

In theory, one could argue (or rather:  one could have argued) that the Hunger/Demon isn't "born" until first feeding.  But (per @didymos' link, above), this info isn't actually new in 2020; we've just never seen it before (like the whole Oblivion War being off-screen, until revealed in Backup; one could equally argue that Jim "just made it up" then, too...), unless we caught that WoJ online (I find that the info IS reflected in the text-based WoJ compilation... is that a recent add, or has it been there for a while?)

So WCV's Demon is more like a caterpillar/chrysalis/butterfly thing:  caterpillar while babe is in the womb, leeching off the mother.  Shortly after birth, it does a chrysalis-like thing.  Then the hormones rage in the teen years, and the Demon hatches from the chrysalis-or-whatever, and it's a bee-yoo-ti-ful butterfly... which rapes someone to death.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 07, 2020, 11:34:18 AM
Thomas the hairdresser only needed intimacy.

   Or rather he nibbled to keep from starving if I remember correctly..  He tried not to feed at all
but it didn't work out. 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on April 07, 2020, 11:46:53 AM
Or rather he nibbled to keep from starving if I remember correctly..  He tried not to feed at all but it didn't work out.

IIRC, (it's at least implied that) Toe-moss could have fed more deeply, even as a hair-dresser.  Could have rendered his clientele into helpless pleasure-thralls, addicted to his touch.

He chose instead to send them on their way with a pleasant feeling of sensuality and eros, to go delight (and delight in) their chosen lovers.

But you're right -- he was nibbling to stave off starvation, never "eating a full meal."
 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 07, 2020, 03:24:55 PM
IIRC, (it's at least implied that) Toe-moss could have fed more deeply, even as a hair-dresser.  Could have rendered his clientele into helpless pleasure-thralls, addicted to his touch.

He chose instead to send them on their way with a pleasant feeling of sensuality and eros, to go delight (and delight in) their chosen lovers.

But you're right -- he was nibbling to stave off starvation, never "eating a full meal."

Going back to what Thomas said at the end of Turn Coat,  eating the way he'd really like to
would be stupid.   Thus even then I think he walked a fine line between nibbling/giving pleasure to the hair dressing experience and setting off red flags that would draw attention to him.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 07, 2020, 03:48:24 PM
   Or rather he nibbled to keep from starving if I remember correctly..  He tried not to feed at all
but it didn't work out.
If the foetus keeps doing that for nine moths it will add up to something quite big.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 07, 2020, 05:34:59 PM
If the foetus keeps doing that for nine moths it will add up to something quite big.

  The fetus does feed for nine months,  that is why a pregnant mom is told she is eating for two.  I guess the embryo Hunger demon has to as well.   Different from adult Thomas, once the Hunger demon is reawakened by that first feeding becomes a true symbiotic relationship.  If the Hunger demon is starved of the emotion it needs for nourishment, then it's host starves.  Until he went into the hair dressing business when he was living with Harry, Thomas was actually starving to death no matter how much food he ate.  So the host feeds the Hunger demon with emotions and in turn the host lives a longer life, is stronger, heals at a rapid rate.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 07, 2020, 06:40:26 PM
The whole thing would be much simpler if Jim hadn't broken his own rules and the baby was just a pretty normal baby and fed like a regular baby.
I agree. The best explanation is probably some sort of dormancy period like a lot of insects. Which is basically what Jim says in the video in didymos's comment:
(click to show/hide)
IIRC, they don't feed on emotions, they feed on souls using powerful emotion as a vector. The text probably repeatedly refers to them feeding on emotion, but if we look to what happens to Justine in Blood Rites and what Molly says about it after her SoulGaze in Changes, I think it's pretty clear that they feed on souls. I'll look up quotes if there is general disagreement.

IIRC, (it's at least implied that) Toe-moss could have fed more deeply, even as a hair-dresser.
It's somewhat implied in the short story Backup, but it could also be read that feeding deeper would be accomplished by another means.

Based on what Jim said, I wonder if a severe childhood injury or illness would cause the dormant Hunger to awaken.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Arjan on April 07, 2020, 07:04:42 PM
I do not think they feed on souls. They feed on your spiritual power, your life energy.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 07, 2020, 07:23:57 PM
I do not think they feed on souls. They feed on your spiritual power, your life energy.

That's what Harry says in Blood Rites:

Quote
Thomas was a vampire of the White Court. They didn’t drink blood. They fed on emotions, on feelings, drawing the life energy from their prey

Butcher, Jim. Blood Rites (The Dresden Files, Book 6) (p. 15). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: g33k on April 07, 2020, 10:07:36 PM
That's what Harry says in Blood Rites:

Yeah, but Harry's knowledge & expertise in the matter of Souls was, at that point, the famous fraction  diddly/squat.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 07, 2020, 10:54:14 PM
I do not think they feed on souls. They feed on your spiritual power, your life energy.

 Emotions...  However they can also burn the Hunger..  The Hunger feeds off of passion and lust, but true love will burn it out..  I guess if you call passion and lust, life energy, it feeds off of that, however true love, if you define that as spiritual power will burn it out..  Others feed off of fear, guess that one can be called life energy.. Now does bravery cancel it out?
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 07, 2020, 11:01:32 PM
Others feed off of fear, guess that one can be called life energy.. Now does bravery cancel it out?

Yes (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/):

Quote
“You’ve said that True Love (real True Love) only protects against WCVamps feeding on lust. What protects against the other WCVamps?”
It isn’t real complicated that way. The vamps who feed on fear get bad effects from real courage. Those who feed on despair choke on hope. :)
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Yuillegan on April 08, 2020, 12:09:46 AM
Well Jim's explanation is a weak one, and certainly not something that makes sense logically. It definitely isn't rooted in biology. ALL beings need energy, the primary way is feeding. The parasite/Hunger would STILL need to eat during the time between the birth of it's fleshy host and when it finally emerges during its "first" feeding. Dormant insects (and other beings for that matter) still require energy during dormancy (diapause), they have to gather things for the dormant being to sustain itself on. I mean really. The so-called first feeding isn't even the first feeding, because it starts feeding during gestation! You can see Jim is really on the back foot when asked that question, because he stumbles through it and relies on the questioners answer (a common technique when you haven't got a better answer) to their own question.

I concede it might be canon then, but it is a poorly thought out part of the world. Worse still, it doesn't properly align with the information he wrote when he wrote Blood Rites. I imagine he had different ideas about his White Court Vampires when he first wrote them, and then had to sort of patch things on when he expanded their world.

Even if the embryonic Hunger gathered all it needed to eat during the extended period of dormancy for 18 years from it's Host's mother (without somehow killing them both) it hardly explains what the hell they actually feed on. Or how.

Not to mention, are we expected to believe that a young WCV like Inari just has no sexual contact before 18? Statistically more than half of teens have had sex before 18 in the US (I am using US data because it it more relevant to Inari). Even if she herself hadn't, are we supposed to believe that the Hunger didn't rear it's head at all before that? The whole thing is just poorly done imo.

As for whether they feed off life energy, spirit, soul or emotions...I think you guys are making distinctions where you don't have to. Bob talks about it to Harry more than once. And since the literal purpose of Bob is as a talking head, and he is literally a talking head, you can safely assume that he is talking to the reader as much as Harry. All those things are tied together, which means that WCVs feed off all of them.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 08, 2020, 12:20:02 AM
The Justine and Molly references were to life energy and life respectively, not soul.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Yuillegan on April 08, 2020, 02:08:10 AM
As I said, you might be making a distinction where one isn't needed. They are different things, but all bound together. Eating one doesn't mean you're not getting another. Streams, oceans, puddles, rain, tears, ponds, pools, fountains and falls. All are different, all are water.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 08, 2020, 03:04:26 PM
As I said, you might be making a distinction where one isn't needed. They are different things, but all bound together. Eating one doesn't mean you're not getting another. Streams, oceans, puddles, rain, tears, ponds, pools, fountains and falls. All are different, all are water.

Yes, all are water, but they are not the same and the differences do matter.  "Water, water, everywhere and not a drop to drink.."  You can float on the ocean and die of thirst..
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: toodeep on April 08, 2020, 06:32:46 PM
The whole groups in the white court thing isn't well thought out, I'd agree.  It is clear he really built it all around the sexual vampires and it really starts to fall apart when applied to the others, but it doesn't matter that much since they are largely kept offscreen.

True love protects one against the Raiths.  Supposedly because of the melding of the souls and little of theirs is there to protect you or something.  But that really falls apart when applied well.  What if you feel true love but your partner doesn't?  Why does the love protection have to come from sharing with someone (making love) when pretty obviously "true hope" and "true courage" are (I assume) solo activities?  You could argue that Harry has stood up to so many things that should kill him, even when he believed it would kill him that he must have "true courage" and thus should be protected from the Malvora (or Skavis, whichever).  Who knows, maybe he is, but the threat to him has almost always been the Raiths, so it doesn't really matter

Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 08, 2020, 06:57:56 PM
The whole groups in the white court thing isn't well thought out, I'd agree.  It is clear he really built it all around the sexual vampires and it really starts to fall apart when applied to the others, but it doesn't matter that much since they are largely kept offscreen.

True love protects one against the Raiths.  Supposedly because of the melding of the souls and little of theirs is there to protect you or something.  But that really falls apart when applied well.  What if you feel true love but your partner doesn't?  Why does the love protection have to come from sharing with someone (making love) when pretty obviously "true hope" and "true courage" are (I assume) solo activities?  You could argue that Harry has stood up to so many things that should kill him, even when he believed it would kill him that he must have "true courage" and thus should be protected from the Malvora (or Skavis, whichever).  Who knows, maybe he is, but the threat to him has almost always been the Raiths, so it doesn't really matter

I remember a multi-page debate/argument over whether or not if being the victim of rape would
destroy your protection?  Supposedly Justine did away with her protection because she had lesbian sex with another girl.  None of that changed the true love she felt for Thomas, but it took away her protection.  Nor would her feelings for Thomas be any different if she had decided upon a guy instead..  So does it come down to merely being unfaithful?  Harry's true love for Susan protected him for years after she left him, but once he had hooked up with Luccio it was wiped out.  However how can it be unfaithfulness when the person has been out of the picture for years? 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: AClone on April 08, 2020, 11:11:49 PM
The whole groups in the white court thing isn't well thought out, I'd agree.  It is clear he really built it all around the sexual vampires and it really starts to fall apart when applied to the others, but it doesn't matter that much since they are largely kept offscreen.

True love protects one against the Raiths.  Supposedly because of the melding of the souls and little of theirs is there to protect you or something.  But that really falls apart when applied well.  What if you feel true love but your partner doesn't?  Why does the love protection have to come from sharing with someone (making love) when pretty obviously "true hope" and "true courage" are (I assume) solo activities?  You could argue that Harry has stood up to so many things that should kill him, even when he believed it would kill him that he must have "true courage" and thus should be protected from the Malvora (or Skavis, whichever).  Who knows, maybe he is, but the threat to him has almost always been the Raiths, so it doesn't really matter
It doesn't "fall apart" I think you're making invalid assumptions. For one, if only one party truly loves the other, then it's not "true love". The person giving love wouldn't be protected, and the one on the receiving end wouldn't be because they aren't attuned to accept it.

And nowhere anywhere in the series (that I've seen) has there been indication that there is any protection from the other two known houses--let alone "true bravery" or "true courage". If there is, it would be up to Jim to present that mechanism. Yoou can't just assume a parallel.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 08, 2020, 11:23:43 PM
And nowhere anywhere in the series (that I've seen) has there been indication that there is any protection from the other two known houses--let alone "true bravery" or "true courage". If there is, it would be up to Jim to present that mechanism. Yoou can't just assume a parallel.

No one's assuming.  Jim has stated that that is the case.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: AClone on April 08, 2020, 11:45:44 PM
It was the three major houses: Raith, Malvora, and Skavis.  It's implied there are also some minor houses that haven't been named:

As to the number of vamps there:

We then get a number on how many are seated, and that is about a hundred:

There's some ambiguity there.  It may have been only a hundred total after all, or there may have been some vamps standing instead of sitting.  In any case, most of them were only the "leading members of the three major Houses", which would mean there were a bunch of Whites who weren't in attendance.
I think that maybe you’re looking in the wrong place. I think thank when Thomas initially tells Harry “what he can’t tell him about”, he describes it as a gathering of a hundred of the most powerful vampires of the White Court. And I’m assuming that would be politically powerful. So the number of attendees was probably the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

There is an interesting idea lurking around this conversation.  If it is the first fatal feeding that turns a white, does the infant who kills his mother during gestation come out a full fledged vampire?

And this is covered to some degree in PG at the Fool Moon Garage.
I suspect that you’re reading it wrong. If a fetus killed it’s mother by feeding, then it wouldn’t be born. I think that what is implied is that the feeding weakens the mother to the point that she doesn’t have the strength to handle the physical stress of childbirth. Making it a 50-50 proposition.

I'm further going to suggest White Court vampire who was pregnant could bolster her own reserves simply by feeding more often to strengthen herself. That seems pretty obvious to me.

I’m pretty sure that Thomas was referring to a 50-50 chance for mortals—since he was, after all, directly referring to Justine’s situation.

I agree, but if he were, she shouldn't have gotten pregnant. 
Exactly. If ya’ll don’t mind, I’m going to suggest a different tack. First I’ll point out that the naagloshii referred to Lara and her sisters as phages attached to a rotting meat sack (iirc). But he/it was speaking to them. That implies that their consciousness is the phage, and the body just happens to be along for the ride. Thomas referring to it as a “demon” is just a figure of speech, distancing himself from his inherent nature.

More importantly, I’m going to refer to the fact that Thomas states not only that they “took precautions”, but that his kind are “all but infertile”. In essence, a very low sperm count for males. I’m not going to speculate what the actual mechanism is. Nor am I going to question that Thomas and Justine took effective precautions. I'll take that at face value.

Instead, I’m going to go a different direction.

I’ll point out that throughout the series, there have been random events that have happened without explanation. The car that rear ended Harry, and all he concluded was that it was a crime of opportunity. Karrin’s car getting blown up, which he tried to attribute to the various villains of White Night, but it doesn’t quite fit. And on the flip side, times like when Marcone shows up out of nowhere with a Valkyrie—at the exact moment that Harry is destined to die.

Or, most specifically, when in Proven Guilty, after Harry has used Little Chicago for the first time to find Molly, Bob discovers that Little Chicago had been “fixed” with so that Harry’s head wouldn’t explode—then it was returned to it’s original state, with the damaged coupling. Implying that someone not only knew about Harry’s lab, about Little Chicago, but had the power, knowledge and access through Harry’s wards to fix (and unfix) it.

So I’m going to suggest here that someone, some outside force, meddled…to make sure that Justine got pregnant.

Not going to speculate as to how or why, positive or negative. But it seems to me that particular leap is a whole lot more likely for Jim’s style than… “Oops. It was an accident”.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: 123Chikadee on April 08, 2020, 11:50:35 PM
I wonder what sort of acts would qualify for 'true bravery' or 'true hope'. Is the protection on a case by case basis or can you lose the protection by giving in to fear or despair? I can believe that an object can be imbued with courage or hope if enough people put those types of feelings into the them, the swords show that pretty well. So I bet you can do it with other things.
@AClone: Interesting. Who would have the power to do that?
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Mira on April 09, 2020, 12:09:20 AM
Quote
So I’m going to suggest here that someone, some outside force, meddled…to make sure that Justine got pregnant.

   Very possible, but the question is why? 
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 09, 2020, 12:12:39 AM
So I’m going to suggest here that someone, some outside force, meddled…to make sure that Justine got pregnant.

I can tell you who it was: some guy named Jim. :P
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: morriswalters on April 09, 2020, 12:18:30 AM
Jim did it so that branch of the Dresden family could have a little Thomas or Thomisina to replace poor dead daddy and beloved brother. Changes for Thomas Raith so to speak.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 09, 2020, 12:40:57 AM
Bob discovers that Little Chicago had been “fixed” with so that Harry’s head wouldn’t explode—then it was returned to it’s original state, with the damaged coupling.
Was it returned to it's original state? I've never heard that suggested, and that was never my take.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: didymos on April 09, 2020, 12:44:30 AM
Was it returned to it's original state? I've never heard that suggested, and that was never my take.

It wasn't.  Bob simply says it has been fixed, and then they wonder how that happened.
Title: Re: [Spoilers!] First chapter of PT
Post by: Bad Alias on April 18, 2020, 01:44:25 AM
Quote
I rip out pieces of people's souls and eat them ...
Thomas, Chapter 15, Cold Days.

My point in bringing this up is just to point out that the books support the contentions that Whites feed on emotion, life, life energy, and/or soul. Spirit may have been in there somewhere too.