The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Some curious things in Summer Knight

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Avernite:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on March 18, 2020, 03:18:08 AM ---Yeah Chicago-over-Chicago is only called that because of where they made it. They could have used any location. The Stone Table is in Tir Na North, according to Jim.

BA - Just because it is a crossroads doesn't explain why more than half the supernatural world and major events happen there. There is surely more than one crossroads too in any case. Chicago isn't even the biggest shipping or trade city, let alone the biggest major world crossroad. Chicago is fantastic, sure. But none of that explains why everything happens there. It's probably the New York phenomenon (i.e. how every movie and comic etc seem to have major world events happen there). I'd just love a better narrative reason myself.

--- End quote ---
Well, Harry really is the reason. The Vampire War starts there, the duel with Ortega happens there, because Harry.

Okay, a slight addendum is that WC headquarters is there, giving us White Night & Thomas. Which might just explain Harry - maybe the curse on Lord Raith drew Harry and Thomas (very) subtly together, and since Raith was in Chicago, so was Harry.

Even Chicago-over-Chicago revolves around Harry - Mab picks him as Emissary, Maeve and Aurora flutter around him (though they may just have been drawn to Ground Zero of the supernatural war).

And because all this stuff happens in Chicago, Uriel/Michael/Raphael/Gabriel respond-in-advance and plant a Knight in Chicago. Which ensures Nicodemus and his buddies are drawn in.

This only leaves the Dead Beat events unexplained, could've been anywhere with old burial grounds (Rome and Paris spring to mind, as do dead cities in Mesopotamia that are still close enough to the living), but I can give that a pass.


--- Quote ---I get your point about the Knights. I also think that Jim has changed a few rules since Summer Knight as well, which affect how powerful things are. But mostly, I think that Knights have extra special power beyond the Free Will they carry. They exist to fill a highly specific role, and in that role they are undeniable. Stronger in than the Mothers, in a sense. Just as the Mothers have incredible amounts of Power constrained by tight and complex limits, the Knights have just a little Power but essentially unlimited freedom with which to employ it. But I think that was no accident, I think the Knight were created to create a specific weapon far stronger than anything the Fae could do otherwise. Something stronger than the sum of its parts.

--- End quote ---
Hence my reference to Skin Game. Even Uriel needs his power in the hands of Free Will to achieve things.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on March 18, 2020, 03:07:20 AM --- ... what if she didn't need to exchange a price, and could help for free because Nemesis had freed her from that normal obligation restriction that all Fae have? ...
--- End quote ---

Mab explicitly states that "it was the knife."  So unless SHE was Nemfected (and thus could lie) we can safely assume that was the vector into Winter (Lea & Maeve).

Summer/Aurora looks likely to be Elaine, still.  She may not even have been knowing/willing; or maybe Mortal Free Will was still allowing her to fight off the Nimfluence and work with Harry against Aurora...?

Arjan:
It is not the flu, otherwise everyone would have it and the gates would be broken. Lea used the power of the knife and cat Sith was probably overpowered.

Lea had access to Maeve as confirmed in summer knight. The link between her and Aurora could have been the winter knight but I think Maeve simply did set up a meeting with Aurora and ambushed her. Seducing the winter knight came after that.

Bad Alias:
The WC headquarters wasn't in Chicago. Lara was surprised Papa Raith was there when he showed up in Blood Rites. All of them who weren't in Chicago were there because Arturo Genosa was there.

Dead Beat happened there because they were all looking for the book, which was in Chicago. They were expecting to find it and were preparing the way there.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Arjan on March 18, 2020, 06:24:14 PM ---I think the most logical order of infection was Knife => Lea => Maeve => Aurora. I think Maeve was already infected in summer knight.

--- End quote ---

Can't be true unless Mab lied or was mistaken, both of which are highly unlikely. She explicitly says it was the knife that was the vector of infection to Lea, implying Lea infected Maeve. Maeve was unlikely to have been infected in Summer Knight as she actually helps Harry get to Aurora and stop her, and is not working with Aurora. If they did (like Maeve and Lily in Cold Days) they really could have upset everything, and been a much more difficult issue. Also why would Lea infect Maeve and have her infect Aurora? Maeve could have played Aurora's role in Summer Knight just as easily but in reverse (in fact she would have relished killing Slate). Occam's razor - she wasn't infected yet.

Mira is probably right though that Elaine is the likely source, unless there is another unknown infected/infector. And you'll probably notice that whenever Elaine shows up, Black Council and Outsiders make an appearance (and Nemesis seems to as well, although there is a good argument to say Nemesis is in every book).


--- Quote from: Avernite on March 18, 2020, 06:50:03 PM ---Well, Harry really is the reason. The Vampire War starts there, the duel with Ortega happens there, because Harry.

Okay, a slight addendum is that WC headquarters is there, giving us White Night & Thomas. Which might just explain Harry - maybe the curse on Lord Raith drew Harry and Thomas (very) subtly together, and since Raith was in Chicago, so was Harry.

Even Chicago-over-Chicago revolves around Harry - Mab picks him as Emissary, Maeve and Aurora flutter around him (though they may just have been drawn to Ground Zero of the supernatural war).

And because all this stuff happens in Chicago, Uriel/Michael/Raphael/Gabriel respond-in-advance and plant a Knight in Chicago. Which ensures Nicodemus and his buddies are drawn in.

This only leaves the Dead Beat events unexplained, could've been anywhere with old burial grounds (Rome and Paris spring to mind, as do dead cities in Mesopotamia that are still close enough to the living), but I can give that a pass.

Hence my reference to Skin Game. Even Uriel needs his power in the hands of Free Will to achieve things.

--- End quote ---

Okay but let's list all the things central to the series or the world that also are in/near Chicago:
- Knight of the Cross (Michael, then Karrin and later Butters. Susan too technically.)
- Demonreach (Prison full of world ending dark gods and monster, possibly and indeed likely Outsiders and Old Ones)
- Major White Court stronghold (previously not the heart, but with Lara in charge it effectively is)
- Previously powerful Red Court noble
- Major location for a number pivotal (sometimes world-saving) conflicts attended by seriously impressive groups and individuals including but not limited to: The White Council, The Heirs of Kemmler, Summer and Winter War, Regular presence of Faerie Queens and Nobles, The Knights of the Cross, The Order of the Blackened Denarius, the White Court, a strong individuals from the Red and the Black Courts, Outsiders, Archangels, Regular Angels, Gods, Demigods, Fomor, the Archive, a Dragon etc)
- Former home of BOTH immediately previous and CURRENT Summer and Winter Knights
- Current Winter Lady, former Summer Ladies and Winter Lady
- America's most powerful criminal (arguably)
- probably more but you get the idea

My problem is why it's pretty much always there.

And as for the power of the Fae Knights...I think that it comes down to the Mantle + Person = Knight. Same with the KotC (Sword + Person = Knight). The Knights are powerful because of the combination, but the person on their own is less so (sometimes MUCH less so) and the Swords or Mantles are effectively useless without an Agent to wield them respectively. 


--- Quote from: g33k on March 19, 2020, 01:12:23 AM ---Mab explicitly states that "it was the knife."  So unless SHE was Nemfected (and thus could lie) we can safely assume that was the vector into Winter (Lea & Maeve).

Summer/Aurora looks likely to be Elaine, still.  She may not even have been knowing/willing; or maybe Mortal Free Will was still allowing her to fight off the Nimfluence and work with Harry against Aurora...?

--- End quote ---

Not sure what you're arguing here. I don't disagree it was the Knife that infected Lea, and then Maeve by proxy eventually. But Lea had the Knife in Summer Knight, and was likely nemfected in this book. My point was that being nemfected allowed her to lie to Dresden (if she felt like it, we have this evidence from Cold Days) and therefore could have lied/misled Dresden on who paid the price for her help to see the Queens (i.e. not his Mother, but not price was paid at all - which is normally impossible for the Fae). And I agree Elaine is the likely infection point for Aurora, as I said above. Not convinced that Free Will trumps Nemesis, or that Elaine is actually infected necessarily. She could be enthralled to her master and given Elaine a tainted gift, like Lea received. She also may have saved Dresden for another purpose that aligns better with Nemesis' plans (like the fact he is a Destroyer).


--- Quote from: Arjan on March 19, 2020, 02:35:31 AM ---It is not the flu, otherwise everyone would have it and the gates would be broken. Lea used the power of the knife and cat Sith was probably overpowered.

Lea had access to Maeve as confirmed in summer knight. The link between her and Aurora could have been the winter knight but I think Maeve simply did set up a meeting with Aurora and ambushed her. Seducing the winter knight came after that.

--- End quote ---


Arjan, no idea what you mean here. I am not sure who is arguing that Nemesis is like a highly infectious disease, but I am not. I have always maintained it has limits and chooses it's targets. When you say Lea used the power of the knife...what exactly do you mean? The Knife adds to her power, and as we have no idea how transmission occurs it is almost impossible to speculate on how the Knife actually passed it on to her. She may only have to touch it (like a Denarius) for it to be able to infect her. Cat Sith quite likely was overpowered, although again we have no idea how they actually managed to infect him (or who did it).

I completely disagree, as outlined above in my response to you earlier in this post. It's is too inefficient and complicated to have her infect Maeve just to infect Aurora. She could just infect Aurora herself. And if she couldn't meet with Aurora, infect one of her lesser retinue and have them pass it on. Why use the Winter Lady for such a task? You are also assuming that 1) Maeve could actually have gotten the better of Aurora and beaten her (unlikely considering Maeve was essentially a slave to the mantle she wore, and as Harry outlined that tends to give Summer and advantage as they are the perfect counter to Winter) and 2) that Aurora would have met with her polar opposite and enemy. Why would she even do it? The more you examine the situation you describe, the more complex it becomes. The simplest explanation is that Lea infected Aurora in Summer Knight, and infected Maeve later off-screen.

BA - Exactly. WC initial headquarters were originally not in Chicago, but effectively is now. Likely they have multiple bases all over the world. I always though LA or NY made more sense tbh.

But that's another weird thing. Why on earth was the last Die Lied Der Erlking in Chicago??! Surely there would have been more in Europe or other such places? I get the reason was so that Harry could be involved, but what if it had been London or Prague? Would Cowl have become a new god then? Would the book have been destroyed? Would anyone have noticed until it was too late and the White Council had been wiped out?

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