The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Some curious things in Summer Knight
morriswalters:
Things are in Chicago because the book is centered in Chicago. So the frequency of anything tied to Chicago is related to Jim choice to site the series there. It doesn't tell you anything in and of itself.
BrainFireBob:
A few thoughts.
Chicago in general- it is a multi-layered crossroads. A freshwater port on an inland lake that connects to the ocean- twice. A major international airport hub. A railroad hub, a freeway hub. Located in the middle-ish of two mountain ranges, the Great Lakes, and the Great Plains, at the border of two nations. An old Celtic concept is that the more between something is, the greater the overlap with the Otherworld. Also, it’s a city in the sky- from a certain point of view. The entire city was lifted to solve a drainage problem in the 19th century; it’s on stilts. Canada is “cold”, the Great Plains are “hot”, and Chicago swings from one extreme to the other- it’s a good magical Law of Similarity for the “border” between Summer and Winter as well.
Venice would be your closest comparison, but is pretty definitely in Summer territory.
From a supernatural nations point of view; Europe is the primary stomping grounds of the White Council. South America was Red Court; one assumes China is Jade Court with a smattering of “they don’t do anything so White Council is there too.” Black Court was active in south-eastern Europe but was aggressively expansionistic; White Court appears to be Mediterranean originally (they speak Etruscan and favor the use of ghouls as muscle; ghouls speak Sumerian as a native tongue). Africa and Australia are unknown.
The White Council has been moving into North America, yet it seems that an effort to “recruit” in North America is new, like Ramirez-generation new. Let me suggest the following.
North America was *White Court* territory. This was a point of friction for New World wizards- McCoy, Liberty, Listens-to-Wind- and created a political block as a result in the White Council. Bianca was moving in to this territory specifically to assert a Red Court presence. Her success- right down to running a brothel, recalling that that would be what one would expect as a White Court thing- is why she’s promoted later.
The White Court previously published Stoker’s Dracula when the Black Court was threatening their territory in Europe (southeastern Europe).
Harry Dresden, walking magical boomstick, meanders into Chicago on his own, possibly originally for easy access to the Ways. He’s persona non grata in the Council and doesn’t interact with them.
Initially, he wanders into a turf Cold War between Bianca and Marcone. As a side effect, Bianca develops a personal hatred.
In Fool Moon, he embarrasses Madrigal Raith in front of the supernatural community (he was offering to auction Harry, recall).
Later, as a personal coup, Bianca attempts to kill him. Instead of directly violating the Accords, he releases his power to allow her dead victims to kill her and her ... scourge? This is the pretext for the Red Court to declare war, but this does not void the standing of the White Council, making it an internal matter between the two. Winner: White Court. The incursion on their territory is neutered.
Paolo Ortega then challenges Harry to a duel. He loses.
Blood Rites- the White King is embarrassed by the White Council. His newest daughter is lost to the White Court and the Raith family. One assumes this is internally considered . . .an embarrassment. The Black Court has also established a presence in Chicago in this book; moving in to the “empty” territory?
Sidenote: Dead beat, Death Masks - the White Court is inert/embarassed, the Red Court lost their local powerbase in Chicago, the Black Court has abandoned moving in. Harry and the White Council aren’t flexing their muscle; making this an ideal magical Casablanca, explaining the Denarian and necromancer use of it. One assumes that the “dark ley lines” of Demonreach are part of their intended use of Chicago. Vastly powerful ley lines and no major supernatural nation providing oversight?
Main argument: Proven Guilty- this is targeted at Dresden, so it’s incidentally in Chicago. Dresden again embarrasses Madrigal Raith.
White Night- the White King is facing an internal coup. Malvora and Skavis are killing the next generation of the White Council before birth to show that “the wizards are vulnerable.” This is an insult that implies that the White King is seen as being in retreat/afraid of the White Council. This is “saved” for Lara by Harry showing up to eliminate the champions of Malvora and Skavis, making him appear as her cat’s paw when combined with their previous interactions. Instead, it appears Lara set up the other two Houses. The “power vacuum” in Chicago that Harry didn’t realize he’d created is filled by John Marcone. Lara Raith discovers that Harry is still protected by True Love from Susan, presumably when she attempted to use her power on him at the end of the book. He was an unanticipated threat at that point, being immune.
Small Favor- the Denarians make a play for Marcone or the Archive. And Anastasia Luccio seduces Dresden, out of the blue, removing his Lara Raith protection. Again, this can be seen as a territorial dispute revolving around Chicago.
Turn Coat- again, personal to Dresden. Chicago is incidental.
Changes, Ghost Story- Personal to Dresden. Red Court is eliminated. In the aftermath, we see Marcone and Lara fending off the Fomor.
Cold Days- is really about Demonreach, which happens to be outside of Chicago.
Skin Game- Is personal. Mab has collaborated with Marcone for a vault with access to Hades’s vault to be located near the physical location of her Winter Knight.
Point is, what’s happening in Chicago is that Harry blundered into a turf war between two vampire courts; and his grandfather, being the Blackstaff, had enough White Council political clout to ensure that Harry was an actual full member of the White Council, with all rights and privileges applying thereof. Butcher tells us outright the White Court uses cat’s paws multiple times.
Returning to the OP:
1) When one court moves, the other must respond. Both ladies being in proximity makes sense, regardless of Nemfection. I suspect it has to do with their purpose. At a *guess*, the Winter Lady’s job is to entice Changelings to Choose Fae, as part of a broader portfolio to supply soldiers for the Reality War. The Summer Lady may have the same job for summer Fae, or may exist to ensure that the Changelings have Choice. The Winter Lady’s seductress act would fit this portfolio nicely.
2) The Summer Knight may have been in Chicago as a reaction to the budding turf war between Vampire Courts.
3) Nice catch, I missed this. And Lea is one of the nastiest Winter Fae, yes? Kemmler was allied with “most of the wicked Faeries.” Probably includes the Erlking, too- goblins aren’t exactly nice. WAG: Harry is following a mirror Kemmler path, and this will be story important at some point. From the outside, he certainly looks a lot like Kemmler from the initial brief description we get. Speaking terms with nasties, keeps coming up with power-ups.
4) I disagree here. I think it’s that the Knights aren’t bound by their power. A Fae not only lacks free will, but I imagine they can’t abrogate your free will either. Example: A musician told Maeve he’d give his life to play at a certain level. Maeve killed him by making him play himself to death, but *inspired* playing. If he hadn’t made that bargain, I don’t think she could have touched him. A Knight has the same freedom as any other mortal to frag anyone, even using their power. You irritate Mab but you don’t actually give her legal grounds to kill you? She can waste her time in elaborate vengeance, or just tell her Knight “That guy offends me. Deal with him.” No pretext, no cause- if Mab decided blondes were irritating, the Knight could go on a killing spree for her, as long as he could actually pull off the hit (Kincaid wouldn’t go down soft, nor would most of the Valkyries).
Additional note: One of my pet theories is that Harry isn’t the Winter Knight. Id-Harry is the Winter Knight, but Harry-Harry controls Id-Harry until he’s ready to make things go BOOM. This is part of what’s so attractive to Mab- a Knight who is master of the mantle, able to call on it, give it its head, or even tell it “stop that” depending on the situation. That would be why Id-Harry has the badge but Slate was branded.
I also have a super WAG that Harry’s not Harry, Id-Harry is Harry; Harry’s a fine thrall personality created so Id-Harry would be a controllable enforcer for DuMorne (immune/resistant to black magic backlash); but that Harry-Harry has existed long enough to “grow” his own soul, analogous to Lash-Lasciel. In fact, he would have been Harry-Harry for longer than he was Id-Harry.
Of course, my other WAG is that Harry is the 4th KOTC (Uriel’s Knight); and that’s why Mab is forced to accept Uriel’s intermittent interference. Since the other three are Faith (Gabriel), Hope (Michael), and Love (Raphael); my wife and I enjoy discussing what he might be the Knight of, my wife likes “Acts/Actions” and I favor “Judgment” or “Vengeance.” Puts a completely different spin on that scene with Cassius, when he claims to “repent” and Michael says, emphasis mine, “We can’t do anything to him”- and then the other three Knights process to let the 4th Knight break his kneecaps for information. HE can do something to Cassius. Faith in God, Hope in God, Love of God, Judgment of God.
The infusion with Soulfire would be analogous to Butter’s Lightsaber- it appeared when Harry went running into a Denarian ambush to save a little girl. His first use was a hand that literally smacked Thorned Namshiel around. Or maybe the Lance of Longinus is the 4th Nail. Or both.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on March 19, 2020, 08:13:28 AM ---Can't be true unless Mab lied or was mistaken, both of which are highly unlikely. She explicitly says it was the knife that was the vector of infection to Lea, implying Lea infected Maeve.
--- End quote ---
So: Knife => Lea => Maeve Is what you get from Mab. From her nothing about when Maeve was infected but it is suspicious that Maeve talked about Lea to Harry the way she did in Summer Knight.
--- Quote ---Maeve was unlikely to have been infected in Summer Knight as she actually helps Harry get to Aurora and stop her, and is not working with Aurora.
--- End quote ---
I won't call that help. She obstructed Harry and only did the bare minimum not to get suspected by Mab.
Aurora was short term and served as a good distraction for Maeve.
It was Actually Elaine who helped Harry at the decisive moment at the end so Harry could confront Aurora. She could have dropped the thorns on Harry and everything would have been over.
--- Quote ---If they did (like Maeve and Lily in Cold Days) they really could have upset everything, and been a much more difficult issue. Also why would Lea infect Maeve and have her infect Aurora?
--- End quote ---
Lea would have easy access to Maeve. Aurora would have been totally different for her. And Maeve was the real long term asset. Aurora was sacrificed for an immediate stab.
--- Quote ---Maeve could have played Aurora's role in Summer Knight just as easily but in reverse (in fact she would have relished killing Slate). Occam's razor - she wasn't infected yet.
--- End quote ---
Why? she had Aurora for that and could stay hidden.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on March 19, 2020, 08:13:28 AM ---But that's another weird thing. Why on earth was the last Die Lied Der Erlking in Chicago??! Surely there would have been more in Europe or other such places? I get the reason was so that Harry could be involved, but what if it had been London or Prague? Would Cowl have become a new god then? Would the book have been destroyed? Would anyone have noticed until it was too late and the White Council had been wiped out?
--- End quote ---
Cowl had been going around destroying them already. Why go to the end of the line first? There probably would have been more in Europe, so, if efficiency was necessary, starting in Europe would make more sense. (But Ways, so take that explanation with a grain of salt).
--- Quote from: BrainFireBob on March 19, 2020, 03:18:21 PM ---In Fool MoonProven Guilty, he embarrasses Madrigal Raith in front of the supernatural community (he was offering to auction Harry, recall).
--- End quote ---
Not everything important happens in Chicago. The war with the Reds was pretty global. A Senior Council member is murdered in Archangel, Russia. The shroud is stolen in Italy. It only comes to Chicago because of Marcone. Ortega is assassinated in Honduras. The Wardens are basically wiped out in Italy and Africa. There is a major battle with the Red Court where Morgan nearly kills the Red King. At the same time, Luccio's training camp is attacked with Michael in proximity. The events of White Night happen all over America, or at least their lead up. Another Senior Council member is assassinated, this time in Edinburgh. The major events of Changes happen in Mexico. I don't recall when it happened, but there was that situation with the Rakshasa. The Fomor is a global situation.
I'm sure there is other stuff going on, but we know more about what happens in proximity to Harry. I do think it would be fun if Jim takes advantage of Margaret's knowledge of the Ways to really broaden the story, and I think shelving that knowledge seems like something that would happen in those other stories about a wizard named Harry. On the other hand, I don't really care too much about where the story takes place.
Yuillegan:
Morris- I am aware of the reason that Jim uses as an author...but as I said earlier, I would prefer a better narrative reason. What I am saying really is that I believe the book has outgrown the Chicago setting. Jim doesn't need to stick to the "cookie-cutter" rules as he calls them as much anymore. He can afford to take risks and leave Chicago every now and then, and make it a more interconnected book. Even if he stays within America. Which isn't to say he doesn't sometimes jump around, but it is few and far between.
BFB -
Okay, interesting points on the Chicago take. Best I have heard so far.
I like your thoughts on the divvying up of the place, although one imagines it is more populous and complicated. The Fae seem to be everywhere, as do the Fomor. Not to mention there isn't much discussion about smaller parts of the world, and what supernatural events/territories are happening there (like Africa).
1) I agree with what your saying, but it doesn't really examine properly why they were there around the time the Red Court war kicks off. It is too big of a coincidence imho.
2) Possibly, but it is sort of implied he lives there. He has an apartment where Fix, Meryl, Lily, and Ace took refuge from Lloyd Slate.
3) Thanks, it was buried well until recently. Yeah I forgot that Kemmler had links to "the nastier Faeries". We never have really explored which Faeries they would be...Lea would be a highly likely candidate. Mab seemed to know him, the Erlking does seem oddly connected to him, the Red Cap would be a fit. But who else? Harry does seem to parallel him in many ways...I wonder if Kemmler was a starborn himself?
4) I see what you're getting at. Except it is only the QUEENS that cannot kill (i.e. abrogate mortal Free Will). All the other Fae can do as they wish in that regard. So why can't the Queens just use any of their normal monsters to kill humans then? Well they can, and often do. The Knights have a more specific, more complex and unique purpose. Bob explained them as the wetworks guys of the Courts. But it is more about WHOM specifically they can, and are meant to kill. And probably about whatever other functions they perform for the Queens. They also seem to be a failsafe and an enforcer of the Queens' will. But mostly it is the combination of universal elemental power with mortal free will - and to be a mere hatchet man seems like a huge waste.
Your super WAG is very interesting. And has precedent (Lash-Lasciel, Bob-Evil Bob, etc). If Harry were in fact merely the "good" version and his evil or Id nature had been held at bay for years, what might happen if the barriers were taken off? Like the fairly bad X-men 3 movie, Jean Grey's alternate personality "Phoenix".
I don't see him as the Fourth Knight of the Cross. For a start, Heaven seems to be pretty big on Free Will. I think they couldn't sign you on without actually asking you...and afaik Harry never was offered or agreed to such a role. Uriel isn't like a Fae; he isn't trying to entrap people. Also pretty sure God is the only Judge in the Christian Faith, his other agents merely carry out his will. The Soulfire angle is intriguing I admit though...but I think Soulfire isn't a nail. Nor is the Lance of Longinus. So it would be hard to be a Knight of the Cross without a connection to the Cross (i.e. a nail).
Arjan -
Considering it was the first time we meet Maeve, it is hard to judge what her "normal" behaviour is. It would have been good to have a story set when Maeve was clearly Maeve, and no doubt could be cast on her behaviour (from being nemfected) to use as a control against later scenes. I admit it is possible that she was nemfected, as the timing is close enough. But still very unlikely to me, for reasons previously outlined.
How doesn't she help Harry? She literally saves him from certain death in the battle of Chicago-over-Chicago, and clears his path to Aurora and the Stone Table (who had not yet raised the Thorn Barrier).
What do you mean by "Aurora being short term" and how is she a distraction for Maeve? As I said, if they had worked together the plan would have succeeded. Why wait? Who was Maeve distracting? Harry? If they had unbalanced the Courts it would have aided Nemesis' plans. I believe Elaine was rebelling in her own small way - helping Harry the best she could without overtly stopping Aurora. Always to maintain her cover.
I think you're argument is that Aurora was a quick and dirty opportunity, sacrificed to test the defences etc. Whilst Maeve was always meant to be a more successful asset. Like Nicodemus with the Fake Shroud (playing Apocalypse lottery) versus whatever his long term plan is.
Except there isn't any real evidence to say that Aurora was meant to be a short term asset. We have NO IDEA when she got infected. If Elaine did it it could have been even 10 years before Summer Knight. Her plan was well thought out and planned, and didn't rely on a window that had opened up. She kicked off her play by killing Reuel (the former Summer Knight) which set the pace from there.
--- Quote ---Why? she had Aurora for that and could stay hidden.
--- End quote ---
Because together they could have succeeded, and why did she need to stay hidden? The simplest answer is that she wasn't nemfected. If they were both nemfected why weren't they working together, even in secret? What was staying hidden for? What was Maeve and/or Nemesis waiting for? What is your theory there?
Bad Alias -
But was Chicago the end of the line? He could have started in Chicago and kept going around to destroy the others? But if there were others in America as well why not start there? In fact, he may well have been lying when he said he was destroying them. The implication is that the Reds made a deal with Cowl that they would distract the White Council enough so that he could become a God and in return eliminate the Senior Council for them. Harry pretty much says that at the end of Dead Beat. So even if he was destroying the book (presumably to stop the competition) the real reason Chicago makes sense for that book is because Bob was there. But how the hell would Cowl know that? Because Cowl is Justin. He knew Harry took Bob and knows he still has him. That was his ace-in-the-hole.
But Dead Beat doesn't make sense if Cowl didn't intend to be a God at all. The attack on the White Council, the arrival on Halloween of all nights, the summoning of the Wild Hunt. These were not coincidences.
I agree not everything happens there, but it seems like a disproportionate amount of important stuff happens there. As I said to Morris, I think the story has outgrown Chicago and Jim can afford to take the series into other parts of the world. Lol I agree, some writers just give off interesting information which they never use again.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version