The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Mira:
--- Quote ---Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).
--- End quote ---
But were they avoidable? Harry wasn't that much older than Kim at the time, in fact most with talent were still apprentices themselves at the age Harry was. Basically he lacked experience with people in general, young women in particular, also he had just got out from under the Doom. So Kim took advantage of him, she had talent so he didn't see the harm in teaching her some stuff, lacking the experience to realize this could get them both in trouble. When she came to him for help with MacFinn's circle, she flat out lied to him about why and he had given away enough knowledge to her to get her killed before he realized that she was lying. It was useless from that point on, apparently because they were nearly the same age Kim thought they were on par and she could handle what was needed to help MacFinn as easily as Harry could. She also wanted to impress MacFinn, so no warnings from Harry would have stopped her, she was too ignorant about magic to believe Harry when he told her he wasn't going to give her enough information to do what she wanted or that she lacked the training to pull it off. Refusing up front may have saved Kim, but she may have attempted something anyway. MacFinn still would have gotten loose and Kim would have died, Harry still might have felt guilty about refusing the knowledge, but it would have saved him getting into crap with Murphy.
As far as Susan goes, he was in love with her, she had come to love him, but there is no getting
around it, she was also using him to further her career. He should have realized it when she video taped the battle with MacFinn and then tried to publish it, she made no secret of her glee about getting the scoop. Had he broken up with her over that, she might be alive and well today, but he was in love and found it hard to believe that someone like Susan was in love with him.. No, people don't change that much, for her it was all about getting the scoop no matter the price, so very predictable that she'd steal and forge the invitation to get the scoop, and she paid the price.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: kbrizzle on March 15, 2020, 09:12:59 AM ---Some thoughts:
One of the leitmotifs of the series is personal choice & living with the consequences of those actions. If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?The arguments that say Harry is responsible for their deaths are like saying Michael is responsible for Harry picking up Lasciel’s Coin in DM because Harry was never warned specifically about Shadows....
--- End quote ---
Another one is how vanilla mortals react to the supernatural. A lot of them made bad decisions in the series based on wrong expectations based on not enough and unreliable information. Harry’s secrecy is one problem. Kim is very early in the series. If Harry had been a warden at that moment it would have been his duty to find out what was going on and he had enough warnings. As a normal wizard he should have called them but that was probably asking to much in his situation
--- Quote ---Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).
--- End quote ---
He should have been really graphic and detailed about what red court vampires are.
--- Quote ---@Arjan
I think you’re really reaching there about Harry ‘abusing’ Kincaid in any sense of the word - Kincaid is not the type of person who puts up with abuse...
--- End quote ---
He used his nature against him to let him make a decision he should not have to make. This is not voluntary, a scion like Kincaid has no or limited free will.
It is not as bad as Molly maybe but it is similar. Harry was too self centered to consider Kincaid as a person even if he knew the consequences, that is abuse.
--- Quote ---The main reason I imagine Harry used Kincaid instead of Lara for his suicide is likely because Kincaid is a paid assassin. He likely had no idea asking for this would create a rift between Ivy & Kincaid - I’m also sure that if Kincaid told Harry about Ivy being left completely alone if he took the assisted suicide contract, Harry would pick someone else.
Also the Archive has been known as the Oracle in the past - perhaps this is a calculated decision made by Ivy that will eventually benefit all.
@Avernite
C. Kincaid left without saying goodbye to Ivy because he doesn’t believe this is the end of their relationship
--- End quote ---
Mira:
--- Quote ---Another one is how vanilla mortals react to the supernatural. A lot of them made bad decisions in the series based on wrong expectations based on not enough and unreliable information. Harry’s secrecy is one problem. Kim is very early in the series. If Harry had been a warden at that moment it would have been his duty to find out what was going on and he had enough warnings. As a normal wizard he should have called them but that was probably asking to much in his situation
--- End quote ---
But he wasn't a warden, and very young to be a full wizard, by the time he realized she was lying he had revealed to much and couldn't put that back in the toothpaste tube.
--- Quote ---He should have been really graphic and detailed about what red court vampires are.
--- End quote ---
Do you really think that would have made any difference to Susan? She survived both MacFinn and the frog demon, perhaps not giving Harry and luck enough credit for it.. She was over confident and greedy for the scoop.
--- Quote ---He used his nature against him to let him make a decision he should not have to make. This is not voluntary, a scion like Kincaid has no or limited free will.
--- End quote ---
There is no evidence for that, in fact I believe Kincaid says in the opening lines that though he may not totally agree with Harry's reasoning, he understands and will do as requested. Sounds like his decision to me, also though Ivy wants him to aim for the chest instead of the head, it appears also to be his decision.
--- Quote ---It is not as bad as Molly maybe but it is similar. Harry was too self centered to consider Kincaid as a person even if he knew the consequences, that is abuse.
--- End quote ---
Both were adults, they made their decisions to aid him in his suicide, I'd agree that none of them thought it out fully, but neither were forced... If it was forced that would have been abuse, but it wasn't.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: kbrizzle ---If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?
--- End quote ---
They seem to be dead. ;) Which in real terms seems to mean that they did, in fact, pay for their mistakes.
One of the things about raising children, is that they don't yet have the experience to avoid things we consider dangerous. Like walking in front of a car. Our greater experience puts us in the position of needing to take responsibility for a child. In the case of both Kim and Susan, that puts Harry in the position of the parent. He has internalized the danger and understands it, they don't. And being told isn't sufficient for children, or for Kim and Susan.
This is the point of his fetish for secrecy. As adults he hasn't the authority over either Kim or Susan that we have over our children. Lacking the ability to forbid behavior and the tools to enforce his edicts, Harry relies on discretion and secrecy. So he either gave them too much, or too little information. His failure, as such, is in underestimating what both Kim and Susan will do. And that failure is due to inexperience.
Dina:
I agree with Harry lacking experience so understimating the two women was his fault. He did his best but he is not perfect. And he has been trained all his life in "knowledge is power" so secrecy is second nature to him. But I disagree with the comparison with children. That is patronizing with them and also give them a pass as if they were not to blame. But they are.
Arjan, I don't think Kinkaid lacks free will. Not the books or the microfiction gave me that idea.
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