The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
Arjan:
We do not know exactly when Lasciel’s coin got loose again it might have had a host during changes. Furthermore can’t is a fuzzy thing with angelic beings. Sometimes it just means that it is against the rules and those rules can bend in certain situations or the fallen can just accept the consequences of giving their opposition more freedom to act.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Arjan on April 27, 2020, 03:06:55 AM ---We do not know exactly when Lasciel’s coin got loose again it might have had a host during changes. Furthermore can’t is a fuzzy thing with angelic beings. Sometimes it just means that it is against the rules and those rules can bend in certain situations or the fallen can just accept the consequences of giving their opposition more freedom to act.
--- End quote ---
Yeah she could had been riding some hapless dupe, and? What canon supports a position that the rules of the coins can be outright ignored? If the Fallen can just wander around it makes a fool of Jim's plot device. Not that I think that would hold Jim back since I'm uncertain that he thinks much about continuity, but still.
For being in position to whisper in Harry's ear Anduriel is the logical candidate since that is his thing. It also explains how the Fallen would have known(per Skin Game). What got talked about around Harry got overheard. They obviously can't read his mind since Gray would have been blown from the git go. About Bonea and how did Lasciel know. I make that to be because Bonea was a thing before Lash vacated the premises.
Could Father Forthill sell the team out, sure. All that has to happen is for Jim to decide its so.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 27, 2020, 04:46:34 AM ---Yeah she could had been riding some hapless dupe, and? What canon supports a position that the rules of the coins can be outright ignored? If the Fallen can just wander around it makes a fool of Jim's plot device. Not that I think that would hold Jim back since I'm uncertain that he thinks much about continuity, but still.
--- End quote ---
The fallen, just like their adversaries, keep to the rules because of the consequences of not doing so. But because of what the fallen are they sometimes break the rules when they think they can get away with it. Then the angels can compensate.
That is why Uriel could give soulfire to Harry and his seven words.
Or was allowed to. Just like the fallen Uriel can do a lot of things he normally can’t do.
--- Quote ---For being in position to whisper in Harry's ear Anduriel is the logical candidate since that is his thing. It also explains how the Fallen would have known(per Skin Game). What got talked about around Harry got overheard. They obviously can't read his mind since Gray would have been blown from the git go. About Bonea and how did Lasciel know. I make that to be because Bonea was a thing before Lash vacated the premises.
--- End quote ---
Harry told everything to Karen in her home when Anduriel was listening.
--- Quote ---Could Father Forthill sell the team out, sure. All that has to happen is for Jim to decide its so.
--- End quote ---
morriswalters:
In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.
And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot. He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea. Not Smart. But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 26, 2020, 11:30:37 PM ---I'm trying to understand this argument. My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all. The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this. When Lash was burned out of Harry's head that connection to the coin was lost. The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access. I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel. Not Lasciel. In so far as I know he is the only Fallen who could have known that Harry had a broken back.
As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind. The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother. I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.
--- End quote ---
That is logical, I hadn't thought about Andriel doing Nic's bidding, Jim harped on Lasciel's "woman
scorned" thing for so long I think most of us did think it was Lasciel who did the whispering. However as I argued it is very hard to set that up, unless the bit about how until Harry, it was impossible to scrub a shadow of the Fallen from one's brain once it has entered. Only logical thing I could come up with is there was still a pathway even after Lash sacrificed herself.
As I said Harry even proclaimed to Mab that if he wanted to he could call up the coin and not have to
become her Knight. Was he lying, mistaken, or was it possible?
In my opinion, the whispers in the office to get him to kill himself worked a lot better than the Hannah Asher/Lasciel showdown in Skin Game for the woman scorned bit.
--- Quote ---I'm trying to understand this argument. My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all. The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this. .
--- End quote ---
Exactly.
--- Quote ---As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind. The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother. I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.
--- End quote ---
I agree, yet at the end of White Night that echo Harry heard scared him so much, he immediately went to dig up the coin and called Father Forthill to pick it up. So Harry at least thought there still might be a connection that he didn't want any part of. Also though it most likely doesn't mean anything, but I cannot remember if Harry has touched a guitar since White Night in any of the stories. Though I guess one could argue, and this is far fetched I know, but while Lash is gone, Bonnie is her daughter, that might be enough of a connection for Lasciel to use even if she was an embryo at the time. That sort of fits with Jim's hints that Harry isn't going to have an easy time with his new spirit daughter. However the general feeling is because Bonnie is an innocent in the ways of the world, but then again if she was born with the knowledge of her parents, how could she be?
--- Quote ---In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.
--- End quote ---
I don't think anyone can, as far as I know Anduriel is the only one who has the abilty to listen in and see everyone. It doesn't specify which of the Fallen made that visit to be sure, but the whole "woman scorned" thing made Lasciel the likely candidate. However there are problems with trying to make that theory work given the rules set down for the Fallen. However Anduriel would know all about Harry's difficulty since he can be everywhere, and Nic, his host can instruct him to act. Nic is human so he isn't going to worry about the angelic rule about not messing with free will in humans. Anduriel is one of the Fallen, he isn't going to worry about it either.
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