The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Oh yes, but do you remember how the stage was set in White Night? Context matters..
He still heard the voice in White Night, which scared him enough to get rid of the coin.. He began to have severe headaches from that point on, you do remember in Turn Coat when Morgan showed up Harry was having a migraine. Um since Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night that we know now he was pregnant with their child. These are facts, and facts matter.. The question is how Lasciel if she was trapped in the coin as of Changes, could still influence a wounded Harry in Father Forthill's office. I explained a theory that I have about how it came about, which I think is quite logical. Oh yes, Uriel in Ghost Story confirmed that it was Lasciel who managed to push Harry over the edge into being suicidal. So how could that be? So had Hannah Asher at that point already taken up the coin ? If she had, did Nic via Andriel find out that Harry was wounded in Father Forthill's office, let Hannah know and in turn she enabled Lasciel to do her thing? That kind of
works.. Or another is the coin was still under lock and key in Father Forthill's office at the time of Changes because for reasons already stated. Lasciel clearly wants revenge, Harry is vulnerable for the reasons already stated, it is very possible that not all lines of communication were severed with the coin when Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night. That is what scared him enough to dig it up and hand it over to Father Forthill at the end of White Night. Harry even boasts to Mab in Changes that he could still call up Lasciel's coin as an alternative to becoming her Knight. No one is sure if that was just bravado on his part to get a better deal or not, but he did say it. If it was true, damn right there is enough connection for Lasciel to show up and mess with Harry's already enormous guilt complex. Context matters, setting the stage matters for what is to come, so hell yeah, what happened back in White Night set the stage for what happened in Changes, and what happened there set the stage for Skin Game..
--- End quote ---
I think the problem here is that you've forgotten how you used evidence in your own argument. Your claim was that Harry being able to play the guitar at the end of White Night was evidence of a remaining connection with Lasciel--and I'm saying that you're wrong, and I know you're wrong because it was said outright in Skin Game that Harry could still play the guitar because he of Bonnie, which means that it isn't evidence that Lasciel could still influence Harry.
--- Quote ---What is your theory?
--- End quote ---
Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules.
If Lasciel still had a connection to Harry which formed as a result of him touching her coin, and that connection was how she spoke to him, then it wouldn't be against the rules because Harry made the free-willed choice to touch the coin and form the connection. Since we know that what she did was against the rules, we know that she didn't use such a connection.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I think the problem here is that you've forgotten how you used evidence in your own argument. Your claim was that Harry being able to play the guitar at the end of White Night was evidence of a remaining connection with Lasciel--and I'm saying that you're wrong, and I know you're wrong because it was said outright in Skin Game that Harry could still play the guitar because he of Bonnie, which means that it isn't evidence that Lasciel could still influence Harry.
Quote
--- End quote ---
You know? Evidence please and what is your theory?
--- Quote ---Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules.
--- End quote ---
Really? Evidence please, what is your theory?
--- Quote ---If Lasciel still had a connection to Harry which formed as a result of him touching her coin, and that connection was how she spoke to him, then it wouldn't be against the rules because Harry made the free-willed choice to touch the coin and form the connection. Since we know that what she did was against the rules, we know that she didn't use such a connection.
--- End quote ---
Oh? Um what was against the rules is Lasciel "lied" to directly influence Harry to suicide.. That unbalanced the scales.. That is in Ghost Story. How do you know she didn't use her former connection to get close? What is your evidence? And no, a prisoner of a coin cannot just reach out and touch someone or anyone without invitation, that is why the Knights are so careful not to touch, because even accidentally can be seen as an implied invite. It may be a bit of a subtle point Uriel was trying to make for some, but it wasn't the reaching out and touching that Lasciel did that was against the rules, it was the lying that influenced Harry's free will, that broke the rules... That is why Uriel could step in and do a little influencing on his own, i.e. the seven words..
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---You know? Evidence please and what is your theory?
--- End quote ---
Mira, read my post. My evidence is in the part you quoted. If you insist, I'll dig up the quote, but fair warning I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it soon or not if you do want it, because I don't have my copy of Skin Game right now so I'll have to find an online version I can access, and I'm busy.
And my theory is at the bottom. You quoted that, too.
--- Quote ---Really? Evidence please, what is your theory?
--- End quote ---
Once again, my theory is at the bottom. And here's the WoJ:
--- Quote ---What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Jim: Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Oh? Um what was against the rules is Lasciel "lied" to directly influence Harry to suicide.. That unbalanced the scales.. That is in Ghost Story.
--- End quote ---
And can you provide any evidence that that is the only thing that was against the rules?
--- Quote ---How do you know she didn't use her former connection to get close? What is your evidence?
--- End quote ---
Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules. We also know that lying using that connection is not against the rules, because it is the job of KotC to "reveal the lies of the Fallen" among other things--ie not the job of archangels like Uriel. Therefore, if Lasciel was using this connection between her and Harry, it wouldn't be against the rules, and since, as you pointed out, what she did was against the rules, we know she wasn't using such a connection.
--- Quote ---And no, a prisoner of a coin cannot just reach out and touch someone or anyone without invitation, that is why the Knights are so careful not to touch, because even accidentally can be seen as an implied invite.
--- End quote ---
Do you have any evidence that it's impossible, rather than against the rules?
--- Quote ---It may be a bit of a subtle point Uriel was trying to make for some, but it wasn't the reaching out and touching that Lasciel did that was against the rules, it was the lying that influenced Harry's free will, that broke the rules... That is why Uriel could step in and do a little influencing on his own, i.e. the seven words..
--- End quote ---
Do you have any evidence that the reaching out was not also against the rules?
And again, Mira, please read my post before responding.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mira, read my post. My evidence is in the part you quoted. If you insist, I'll dig up the quote, but fair warning I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it soon or not if you do want it, because I don't have my copy of Skin Game right now so I'll have to find an online version I can access, and I'm busy.
--- End quote ---
Oh I see, your evidence isn't that good actually..
--- Quote ---Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules. We also know that lying using that connection is not against the rules, because it is the job of KotC to "reveal the lies of the Fallen" among other things--ie not the job of archangels like Uriel. Therefore, if Lasciel was using this connection between her and Harry, it wouldn't be against the rules, and since, as you pointed out, what she did was against the rules, we know she wasn't using such a connection.
--- End quote ---
You seem to be missing the whole point as to why Uriel said the seven words he said to restore balance.. He says it all in Ghost Story when he revealed to Harry what actually happened.. You can twist my words all you want.. However you are very mistaken, anything Lasciel said or whispered that pushed Harry one way or the other violates his free will.. That is a violation of the rules.
I also think you are mistaken about what Jim was saying...
--- Quote ---uote
What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Jim: Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
--- End quote ---
The question was how far they can extend from their Denarian hosts not the coins.. So unless
Lasciel was already held by Hannah Asher, her range was limited..
--- Quote ---Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules
--- End quote ---
Sorry, once again you are confused.. It doesn't matter how the connection was made.. Heck Harry talks to Uriel all of the time, but you will notice that Uriel is very careful about how he answers Harry least he violate his free will with undue influence.. That is what Lasciel did when she whispered to a very distraught and vulnerable Harry, "and it is all your fault.."
--- Quote ---Do you have any evidence that the reaching out was not also against the rules?
--- End quote ---
Do you have any that it is?
morriswalters:
I'm trying to understand this argument. My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all. The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this. When Lash was burned out of Harry's head that connection to the coin was lost. The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access. I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel. Not Lasciel. In so far as I know he is the only Fallen who could have known that Harry had a broken back.
As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind. The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother. I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.
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