The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Oh I see, your evidence isn't that good actually..
--- End quote ---
And you haven't provided any valid evidence. In fact, your theory contradicts available evidence. Compared to that, I'd say my evidence is quite good, actually.
--- Quote ---You seem to be missing the whole point as to why Uriel said the seven words he said to restore balance.. He says it all in Ghost Story when he revealed to Harry what actually happened.. You can twist my words all you want..
--- End quote ---
Mira, I have requested evidence and you have not provided it. Saying, "I don't have evidence, I'm just right" rather implies that you are, in fact, wrong.
--- Quote ---However you are very mistaken, anything Lasciel said or whispered that pushed Harry one way or the other violates his free will.. That is a violation of the rules.
--- End quote ---
Facts:
A) Lasciel interfering in Harry's choices without Harry making the choice to allow her to do so is a violation of Harry's free will.
B) Lasciel interfering in Harry's choices because Harry made the choice to allow her to do so is not a violation of Harry's free will, because it was his free will that allowed her to do so.
C) Harry's choice to touch Lasciel's coin and to use hellfire created a conduit which allowed Lasciel to interfere with Harry's choices.
D) The Fallen in the coins lying to people who are connected to them because they touched the coins does not merit archangelic intervention, because Michael has told us that it's the Knights' job to handle that.
Conclusion:
If Lasciel spoke to Harry in Changes through the conduit (C) then the situation falls under (B) because Harry made the choice to create the conduit. This is not changed by the fact that she lied to him (D). Therefore, since the books have stated that the situation falls under (A), and since (A) and (B) are mutually exclusive, Lasciel must not have used the conduit between her and Harry (C) even if such conduit still exists.
That is what I am saying.
--- Quote ---The question was how far they can extend from their Denarian hosts not the coins.. So unless
Lasciel was already held by Hannah Asher, her range was limited..
--- End quote ---
No evidence of this. It could either be that without a host, the Fallen in the coins can't act, or that it is simply against the rules for them to act.
Based on the power level of angels in this series, I assume that it's simply against the rules, but so far as I can tell it's 60/40 whether it's against the rules vs. if they can't.
And regardless, we know that Lasciel wasn't working with Ascher at the time, because Ascher joined up after Harry set off the ritual at Chichen Itza.
--- Quote ---Sorry, once again you are confused.. It doesn't matter how the connection was made..
--- End quote ---
It does. It really obviously does. Ghost Story made it very clear that if you make the choice to put yourself in a position, that's your free will and angels can't do anything about it. Harry choosing to create the connection between himself and Lasciel was him using his free will to put himself in a position where Lasciel could influence him.
Mira, as I understand it, your claim is:
A) Lasciel used the connection between herself and Harry to speak to him
--no evidence of this that you've provided, and it is contradicted by the evidence and logic I've provided
B) because she couldn't speak to him otherwise
--as I understand the evidence, the balance of probability is weighted slightly against this, and you have provided no evidence to change that
C) which she was able to do because her coin was in close proximity to him
--contradicted by WoJ, which if nothing else definitely states that distances on Earth are irrelevant when it comes to the Fallen influencing those who are connected to them through the coins.
You see why I have a problem with your argument now?
--- Quote ---My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all.
--- End quote ---
Could be true. It's unclear whether it's impossible or just against the rules. Given the power level of angels in this series, I'm inclined toward "against the rules."
--- Quote ---The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access.
--- End quote ---
I'm inclined to think this.
--- Quote ---I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel. Not Lasciel.
--- End quote ---
Could very well have been, in which case my theory would be wrong. Lasciel implied in Skin Game that it was her, but there's more than enough leeway that it could have been Anduriel.
--- Quote ---yet at the end of White Night that echo Harry heard scared him so much, he immediately went to dig up the coin and called Father Forthill to pick it up. So Harry at least thought there still might be a connection that he didn't want any part of.
--- End quote ---
Mira, you cannot state your personal theories as if they were 100% true without providing a scrap of evidence, and definitely not while at the same time saying that the evidence of people who, unlike you, are actually providing some, isn't up to your standards.
There is no evidence that Harry was afraid of a remaining connection to Lasciel, or that that was why he gave the coin to Father Forthill. It could just as easily have been that Lash's sacrifice helped him get to the point where he was prepared to give up all possibility of him using the coin's power, instead of trying to avoid it but keeping it in reserve.
Mira:
--- Quote ---There is no evidence that Harry was afraid of a remaining connection to Lasciel, or that that was why he gave the coin to Father Forthill. It could just as easily have been that Lash's sacrifice helped him get to the point where he was prepared to give up all possibility of him using the coin's power, instead of trying to avoid it but keeping it in reserve.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying that Harry got rid of the coin as a memorial to Lash? Really?
Page 398 hardback White Night
--- Quote ---I heard a very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.
I played for a while longer, before gently setting aside my guitar.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over, so that he could
pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.
--- End quote ---
That is pretty definitive, now why would he do that? I'd say Harry was afraid that there could be
some connection however remote. He did know a lot of Michael's fears for him. Could he have changed his mind and not done it? Yeah, he could have, but why? If he felt the coin was very safe where it was at, and further more he was safe from it, why dig it up and hand it over to Father Forthill? Hearing that whisper spooked Harry in that moment, enough that he feared there still might be a connection however remote. But as a memorial to Lash? Very unlikely.
You want evidence, there is it.. I think Morriswalter's idea that Andruiel was the shadow in the office that pushed Harry over the line makes more sense simply because of the difficulties with Lasciel. Though Harry, himself telling Mab he could call up the coin of Lasciel if he wanted to mucks things up implying a connection still existed.. But that may have been a lie, but it was an option that Harry mulled over along with calling up the Deathhallow. Also Jim's "Lasciel is a woman scorned" thing, getting Harry to kill himself is perfect revenge.. Also finally yeah, there are rules that can be broken, like angels, Fallen or otherwise are not supposed to mess with human free will. That was done and Uriel countered it with the seven words.. However there are also maxim prisons, the coins are that, unless a host takes one up. As Arjan said, I believe, that it is well established as a Dresden plot point, Denarians are locked up in their coins and cannot wander about on their own. They have to have a host to act through. Not saying it couldn't happen, Jim could change his mind, they might be exceptions, but so far there is no proof that it has happened.
toodeep:
"Meaning that since a whisper in you ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child." - Skin game, said by Lasciel.
I always took this to mean she was the whisperer. I see why someone may not, but I think she is the simplest solution, and obviously the one that would know Harry best.
morriswalters:
There is no indication that Harry was afraid of the coin any longer. Had he been afraid he would have left the coins behind the protections they were under in his basement. With Lash dead there was no longer a reason to have the coin. It could no longer affect him.
Whatever Harry said to Mab, he couldn't have done the Darkhallow nor any indication that calling a coin would have served any purpose. The Darkhallow would have required time and preparation, Cowl bitched about the prep time. And there is no indication that the coins could have healed Harry. Thorned Namshiel's coin didn't heal him.
--- Quote from: Small Favor ---The spined Denarian I had beaten down with the silver construct-hand lay reclining on the ground beside Magog, his face twisted with hate, one hand twisting and clenching—but his maimed body was otherwise motionless.
--- End quote ---
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 27, 2020, 11:54:30 AM ---In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.
--- End quote ---
There is a woj somewhere about what the fallen can do but I can not find it so we can not discuss the meaning. Usually Jim forgets that it is against the rules to do so just like when he discusses Uriel's power.
There is also that Nicodemus/Anduriel do not seem to understand Harry that well. Not on the level Lasciel does. She seems at least the mind and motivation behind the idea.
There is also the idea that he could still call the coin whether that is really true or not. He told Mab so anyway but that was more to have something to chat about during the negotiation. But that is also a link.
--- Quote ---And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot. He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea. Not Smart. But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.
--- End quote ---
Or maybe he thought it just more important that Murphy knew that than Nicodemus didn't.
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