The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Traitors
Yuillegan:
SK - Her shutting down Aurora's plans doesn't actually go against the grain exactly. Kumori and Cowl were clearly not of one mind, she even uses her necromancy to "save" a life. One wonders how a fine thrall would behave. They couldn't be too tightly controlled as they wouldn't be useful, but it would have to be enough that they were not as independent as a mere servant...because that leaves the possibility too open of flat out betrayal. Perhaps Elaine hepling Harry against Aurora was her own small act of rebellion, within her limits.
Or perhaps Elaine isn't enthralled but just has a different set of principles, despite being on Cowl's team. Maybe she even doesn't agree with a lot of his ideas, but agrees with enough of them to work with him sometimes. Wouldn't surprise me at all if she was allied with him because she knows about the greater threat coming, that Harry is clearly ignorant of, and has had to ally with dark and dangerous people in order to save people. Much like Harry. From the outside, Harry would look quite dark side if we only saw flashes of his life. Especially recently.
I don't know about the suppressed personality thing but who knows.
Also, I agree with your assessment of Lara and have revised my take. Although I think she could still end up playing for that team, she could well be recruited. They already have tried to recruit Dresden several times, perhaps they will keep trying or perhaps not. In any case I think there are a lot of disenfranchised people who see the White Council for what it is.
BA - Michael betraying Harry is almost the least likely thing that could happen. Maybe THE least likely. I kept being unable to find more unlikely prospects! So yeah, Nicodemus being redeemed (especially if its "he was good all along") is almost completely ridiculous.
True, those Grey Council guys are traitors, but we have been led to believe they are noble. Interesting point, why hasn't Harry questioned why Eb hasn't gone full warlock yet? If he is doing all that black magic, he should inevitably go warlock (at least from Harry's limited perspective). But also after Harry learns about Eb being his grandfather, he asks Eb whether all the secrets are out on the table between them and Eb says "No". He is definitely trying to set Harry up to expect further bombshells.
Yeah, I think you're right about Rashid. Not Black Council or whatever, but quite probably will betray the White Council in order to make it what it "should" be. And maybe betray Harry too...although I have no idea how.
Don't know that we have zero evidence for Elaine being Kumori, more that it is circumstantial. Nothing concrete at any rate, I will concede. More like I think when Harry does found out all her bad past/being a bad guy - I think the reasons won't be easy to argue with and THAT will shock Harry. Hell, he might even end up joining her!
Great descriptions of both the Merlin and Vadderung in my opinion, by the way.
Con:
I mean the last traitor came out of nowhere. Peabody was a minor character, nobody suspected because people thought he was useful but insignificant. Ebenezar and Harry even had a list of suspects who knew about the boot camp and had dismissed Luccio as a suspect. Therefore both actual traitors were dismissed or not even thought of.
Fortiers replacement was never even heard of until he took the council spot.
I'm not saying we haven't met who the other traitor(s) might be. I'm saying the last one came out of left field. For all we know it's Chandler.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on February 09, 2020, 06:47:28 PM --- Personally, I don't buy #14. Lara's a bona fide monster, but an independent one.
--- End quote ---
I don't think the Black Council is some association of idealistic folk serving a Higher Cause (except for those subverted by Outsiders, serving their "Cause").
I think most or all of them see themselves as more a "free association of equals," each gaining more (toward the advancement of their own agendas) than they expend toward any of the others' agendas... and with some "in-common" agenda-items they all want to see advanced.
I could see Lara participating on that basis!
What I cannot see is Lara leaving a big ol' focus of power (and behind-the-scenes manipulation) active, without wanting some leverage upon it, puppet-strings into it. If -- as we've seen speculated -- Papa Raith was on the BC, I think Lara wouldn't have turned House Raith's back upon that.
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on February 09, 2020, 06:47:28 PM --- For the Malvora / Skavis coup plot to have been set up to fail, the Black Council players would have had to predict the lynchpin event of Lash' self-sacrifice allowing Harry to stop the coup. That was out of left field for Harry himself, let alone anyone who might have been trying to use him as a cat's paw there. And Vitto showed every indication that he was going to personally enjoy killing Lara horribly, right up until Harry shot his hand off.
--- End quote ---
Recall that Harry's survival wasn't planned as part of the coup's success/failure; in fact, even getting Harry involved was seen (by the higher-ups) as a tactical error made by a "fool."
But Lash turning? That was only really critical to HARRY.
The core of the Raith strength had already successfully evac'ed, by the time of that "linchpin event" where Harry was under Outsider assault and Lash finally joined Team Dresden. Lara might have saved herself, too: it was by only a fraction of a second's mis-judgement that she didn't get herself and Harry out through the closing Gate.
Also recall how quickly and effectively the Raith's responded to that initial assault (even before Harry gated-in his own allies)... almost like they'd had forewarning and had laid specific plans. It looked a lot to me as if the Raith's were (successfully) evac'ing themselves, even before Harry gave them a Gate (to exit even more quickly).
Last but not least: I expect the Black Council probably sees a fair degree of infighting and (quite literal) back-stabbing. This "coup" could easily have been just another example of that.
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on February 09, 2020, 06:47:28 PM --- ... I really can't see Lara subordinating herself to the organization that tried to have her killed to buy peace after the coup failed, either...
--- End quote ---
I really can't see Lara walking away from a seat on the Black Council just because a rival tried (and failed) to have her killed; particularly when the end result was Houses Malvora & Skavis being decapitated, instead. Lara beat the coup, she beat Cowl... so she... what... throws a tantrum and walks away from the power represented by the BC?
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on February 09, 2020, 06:47:28 PM --- ... She's a lot scarier and more interesting as a lone wolf building a power base so nobody can ever hurt her again like her father did, with no scruples how she gets there ...
--- End quote ---
I completely agree with this! I just don't think a seat on the BC is incompatible with Lara's independence. In fact, I doubt that ANY of the top tier see themselves as being "subject to" the BC: they rule the BC, the BC doesn't rule them! Meeting as "part of" the "The Circle" wouldn't be too unlike that meeting with other Whamp-Houses in the Deeps that night, or the presumed meeting that will be happening in Peace Talks...
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on February 11, 2020, 03:01:35 AM ---I'm on the fence.
--- End quote ---
I think that's where we are supposed to be because she could justifiably go either way. I'm definitely suspicious, but I'm not convinced that she will be a bad guy. I won't be surprised either way.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on February 11, 2020, 04:24:54 AM ---[1] Much like Harry. From the outside, Harry would look quite dark side if we only saw flashes of his life. Especially recently.
[2] Michael betraying Harry is almost the least likely thing that could happen. Maybe THE least likely. I kept being unable to find more unlikely prospects! So yeah, Nicodemus being redeemed (especially if its "he was good all along") is almost completely ridiculous.
[3] Don't know that we have zero evidence for Elaine being Kumori, more that it is circumstantial. Nothing concrete at any rate, I will concede.
[4] More like I think when Harry does found out all her bad past/being a bad guy - I think the reasons won't be easy to argue with and THAT will shock Harry. Hell, he might even end up joining her!
[5]Great descriptions of both the Merlin and Vadderung in my opinion, by the way.
--- End quote ---
1. That's part of my point about Elaine. Many of the things we suspect her of doing, might be justified.
2. 100% what I'm saying.
3. The evidence against Elaine is a lot like the evidence against Richard Jewel. He was there. He gained (initially) from the events. He fit a profile. It's means, motive, opportunity, but that isn't really evidence that someone did something. It's closer to lack of evidence that they didn't do something. It's basically Morgan and the Gatekeeper's evidence against Harry minus a clear violation of the 1st Law.
4. That'd be much more unexpected than just her being a "bad guy."
5. Thanks.
--- Quote from: g33k on February 11, 2020, 04:29:45 PM ---But Lash turning? That was only really critical to HARRY.
The core of the Raith strength had already successfully evac'ed, by the time of that "linchpin event" where Harry was under Outsider assault and Lash finally joined Team Dresden.
--- End quote ---
And the BC could have assumed, if Harry surviving was part of their plan, he would take up the coin to survive.
The Raith contingent hadn't escaped. The blast would have killed them with the gate still open. Or at least Harry thought it would.
--- Quote from: g33k on February 11, 2020, 04:29:45 PM ---Also recall how quickly and effectively the Raith's responded to that initial assault (even before Harry gated-in his own allies)... almost like they'd had forewarning and had laid specific plans. It looked a lot to me as if the Raith's were (successfully) evac'ing themselves, even before Harry gave them a Gate (to exit even more quickly).
--- End quote ---
The UberGhouls had some reserves blocking the exit. I don't think the Raiths were going to make it, but that could be because their forewarning was insufficient to prepare them.
Kindler:
*Reads first post*
*Ctrl+F to see if Mira mentions Murphy as a traitor*
In seriousness, I think there are generally a lot of good thoughts in the thread. But my vote is Chandler, all the way. I find it a bit too suspicious that the guy who screws around with time remains the only "young" warden free during the Purge in Changes. I can see him developing quite a God Complex.
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