Author Topic: Peace talks excerpt indications  (Read 2526 times)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2020, 03:58:44 AM »
The Dresden Files starts after Harry encounters his mentor and has perhaps already crossed the threshold. Honestly, the mentor in Storm Front is the film canister under the bed. There is probably a "mentor" moment in each book, and I don't think it's ever been Eb. Maybe, maybe, in Changes. Eb isn't Harry's "mentor" in the actual books. He's Harry's "mentor" in the Dresden Files prequel.

I've never been a big fan of "the Hero's Journey." It's always seemed like a horoscope description of plot. Vague enough to fit most all circumstances without being specific enough to be helpful or useful.

Offline tacorrific

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2020, 09:01:51 PM »
It sounds like Eb may have had a run in with a cornerhound before, but we don't know when that was.  It could have been before Eb was the badass he is today or it could have gotten the drop on him before he knew what he was up against.  The remembered fear of a close call would be hard to completely ignore, hence the shaking.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2020, 09:14:25 PM »
The Dresden Files starts after Harry encounters his mentor and has perhaps already crossed the threshold. Honestly, the mentor in Storm Front is the film canister under the bed. There is probably a "mentor" moment in each book, and I don't think it's ever been Eb. Maybe, maybe, in Changes. Eb isn't Harry's "mentor" in the actual books. He's Harry's "mentor" in the Dresden Files prequel.

I've never been a big fan of "the Hero's Journey." It's always seemed like a horoscope description of plot. Vague enough to fit most all circumstances without being specific enough to be helpful or useful.

Ditto on both counts. I don't really see Eb as much of a mentor, because about 99.5% of his mentorship is informed rather than shown; it's all off-page.

Nor do I really see the Dresden Files truly matching a Hero's Journey anyway. For one, it starts off with Dresden too far along in his career, abilities, and personality/idealism for it to truly apply, in my opinion.

If anyone is Harry's mentor in the books, on the page, I'd say it's Mab, actually.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2020, 09:27:57 PM »


  Justin was Harry's mentor as far as magic goes, he trained him after all.  However all the values
Harry holds about what magic means he got from Eb, Harry states that.  That is why he was so upset when he found out that Eb was the Blackstaff, an assassin, to Harry it flew in the face of all the values Eb taught him, what Eb stood for.   Yes, Eb was a very important mentor to Harry, he is the one who made Harry the man he is today.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2020, 09:34:13 PM »
In the context of a Hero's Journey, it's the mentor you see that matters.
Uncle Owen taught Luke everything he knew, and presumably raised him to be a good guy. It worked. But Luke's first Hero's Journey Mentor is Obi-Wan, not his Aunt or Uncle.
Tavi's mentors are first Bernard (who we do see doing some mentoring) and later Gaius.

Mentors in the HJ are typically the ones you see set the Hero on a Path. We don't see much of that in Dresden, except from Mab. Maybe Lea (and we certainly see that with her relationship to Molly in Ghost Story), too. Eb's role is informed, not really shown. For the most part, Harry's set his own path.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2020, 05:25:29 AM »
Quote

Mentors in the HJ are typically the ones you see set the Hero on a Path. We don't see much of that in Dresden, except from Mab. Maybe Lea (and we certainly see that with her relationship to Molly in Ghost Story), too. Eb's role is informed, not really shown. For the most part, Harry's set his own path.

  I disagree,  if you go back and read how Harry speaks of Eb.  He is his ideal wizard,  all the ethics Harry has as far as magic goes is due to him.  Harry was an angry kid with one foot on the path towards warlockhood, Eb turned that all around, not unlike Obi-Wan.

Offline Con

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2020, 01:38:52 PM »
  I disagree,  if you go back and read how Harry speaks of Eb.  He is his ideal wizard,  all the ethics Harry has as far as magic goes is due to him.  Harry was an angry kid with one foot on the path towards warlockhood, Eb turned that all around, not unlike Obi-Wan.

I'm with Mira. Ebenezar is where Harry gets his ethics, his code his belief in Magic and his purpose to defend people from magical and supernatural elements. It's why he took finding out about the Blackstaff so personally, he agonises over it from Blood Rites through to Proven Guilty when he realises Ebenezar saved his life during his original trial, and Doom of Damocles.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2020, 11:29:53 PM »
Nick Christian and his father Malcolm.  And perhaps nick Cristian more then Eb.  Because of what he decided to do and at what cost.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2020, 05:13:46 AM »
Nick Christian and his father Malcolm.  And perhaps nick Cristian more then Eb.  Because of what he decided to do and at what cost.

  Growing up and coming of age people have more than one mentor.  Harry doesn't talk about Nick
Cristian that much, yeah, he perhaps learned his detective craft under him, that makes him a mentor, but he never goes back to Nick for advice, at least not on paper.  Harry's early memories of Malcolm form his a bit, joy in the simple things, love, but he wasn't in Harry's more formative years to be considered a mentor.  Justin taught Harry magic, the pain, the power, the brute force of it, he learned no subtlety from him, though that might merely be the quality of his magic since Elaine according to Harry is much more controlled and subtle.  Then again, Justin might have taught them differently.  Justin definitely counts as a mentor.  As I said, Eb is the Obi-Wan in Harry's life, because he didn't teach mere magic like Justin, Harry had already learned that, Eb taught him what magic is.  Harry goes back again and again to the more mystical aspects of magic, this is what caused his pentacle to light up and burn Bianca..  This he got from Eb, until Blood Rights Harry speaks of Eb in referent tones.  A more recent mentor is Rashid,  from him I believe Harry will learn how to combat the Enemy.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2020, 03:57:00 PM »
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of the Hero's Journey either. It's actually more of a basic 'what I've noticed in various folklore and myth' rather than a piece of advice that writers need to use. Technically, Harry doesn't quite fit the mold, but the Hero's Journey is more guidelines than actual rules.
I do wish we could see more of Eb with Young!Harry, but yeah. Mab, Lea, Nick, Justin, Malcolm. All of them act as mentors as well.
Oooh, it'd be very cool if Rashid did act as a mentor for Harry.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2020, 05:14:06 PM »
Heck, Morgan acts as a bit of a mentor ;)

'Do the right thing or else' makes him a lousy mentor, but still.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2020, 07:54:14 PM »
Heck, Morgan acts as a bit of a mentor ;)

'Do the right thing or else' makes him a lousy mentor, but still.

No,  I also wouldn't call Morgan's influence a good one.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2020, 07:57:45 PM »
The hero's journey is a set of steps in a story. "The 12 steps of the hero's journey are...

1. The Ordinary World
2. The Call of Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting the Mentor
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach to the Inmost Cave
8. The Ordeal
9. Reward (Seizing the Sword)
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return with the Elixir"

The mentor gives the hero what he needs to answer the call after refusing it. The mentor pushes the hero into accepting the call. Sometimes this is by literally giving them what they need to succeed such as Lea giving Harry the ruby in Changes. Sometimes it's something the hero already has like grit or an object.

Justin, Eb, and Nick Christian are literally Harry's mentors. For the purposes of the hero's journey, they are, for the most part, not. Lea is also literally his mentor, but she also often fits the hero's journey role of a mentor as well.

What Eb has taught Harry could often be considered the mentor, but it wouldn't actually be Eb because the hero's journey is a structure. It's generally considered "bad" structure to have things out of order.

At some point in almost every book, Bob could probably be said to be the mentor.

In Storm Front, the little film canister fits the hero's journey role of the mentor.

In Fool Moon, I don't think Harry refuses the call.

The same goes for Grave Peril unless you assume that the call to adventure is the invitation to the vampire ball. Then Harry's own experience and skill is the mentor. (A prime example of why I'm no fan of the hero's journey. It can be bent hard enough to make work for any story because it doesn't have any real meaning).

Oooh, it'd be very cool if Rashid did act as a mentor for Harry.
To your point, Rashid fits the hero's journey mentor role to a t in Summer Knight. It's Rashid who acts to push Harry along every step of the way and gives him what he needs to finish his journey. He could also be described as a mentor in Proven Guilty and Cold Days.

In Death Masks, I can't think of a refusal of the call. The loa is probably the best example of a mentor in that one.

In Blood Rites Harry refuses the call at Raith Manor and either Thomas or Margaret gives him what he needs to move forward. I'd argue Margaret.

Lea is in Changes for sure. Justin is more the call to adventure in Harry's flash backs than anything else. Lea would again be a mentor in the Harry vs. Justin story.

I read once that the mentor in most westerns was the main character's grit or some other character trait. Nine times out of ten, Harry doesn't refuse the call, and it's kind of hard to say that Harry starts off in the ordinary world. Almost every time Harry does refuse the call, the first four steps of the hero's journey are Mab.

My point is that the hero's journey is mostly bull and is basically useless for analyzing what Jim is going to do. It's completely useless as a means of predicting Eb's death because Eb isn't Harry's mentor as defined by the hero's journey. Eb, Justin, and Harry aren't even properly described as mentors in their relationship to their apprentices. The proper word is master. The death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. It's lazy writing for when the mentor should obviously be the one handling the story's problem because the mentor is so much more competent than the hero. It's the same reason so many hero's are orphans (because no responsible parent would let their children go on such adventures). Eb isn't very involved in Harry's adventures. We've only seen him in five books and this excerpt from a book.

Jim is a better writer than to stick to a hero's journey script like that for each installment. He might be doing it for the whole story, but I still think you'd have to stretch some or all of the steps to their breaking points to make that kind of analysis work. The hero's journey, in my opinion, is a framework for many (maybe even most or all) ancient stories and myths. Those stories are often powerful and influential. Therefore their structure will be copied and repeated for as long as we remember them or their offspring (or their causes if Jung was correct). Sometimes the coping will be on purpose, and sometimes just because they shaped us. But they aren't necessary parts of satisfying storytelling.

A better predictor of Eb's death is Jim's repeated declarations that he wishes to torture the reader, but that's also a predictor of every character's death. I don't take Jim too seriously on these declarations because everything could be so much worse for all the characters constantly. I've seen those stories. I don't really like them, and I don't see the point. There is enough of that in real life everyday.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2020, 04:17:21 AM »
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The mentor gives the hero what he needs to answer the call after refusing it. The mentor pushes the hero into accepting the call. Sometimes this is by literally giving them what they need to succeed such as Lea giving Harry the ruby in Changes. Sometimes it's something the hero already has like grit or an object.

I'd like to point out that Eb gave Harry a code of ethics to live by when he had none.  Without those, he would have lost his head a long time ago.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2020, 04:54:31 AM »
I'd like to point out that Eb gave Harry a code of ethics to live by when he had none.  Without those, he would have lost his head a long time ago.
I'd like to point out that I addressed that.
What Eb has taught Harry could often be considered the mentor, but it wouldn't actually be Eb because the hero's journey is a structure.
...
I read once that the mentor in most westerns was the main character's grit or some other character trait.
Eb's code isn't Eb. It's a part of Harry's character by the time we meet him. Harry's time with Eb is part of Harry's "Ordinary World."

As to your second point, it could also be argued that without Eb's specific code, Harry would have been living a much easier life, and not endangering himself at all. Harry's code is part of the reason he doesn't fit into the hero's journey. He only refuses the call when it's a, in his opinion, bad guy who makes the call to adventure. If he didn't have that ethos, he wouldn't be risking his life left and right. He also wouldn't be putting himself in situations that lead to temptation.

If we are to cram Harry into the hero's journey, then his "Refusal of the Call" and "Meeting the Mentor" usually all happen in his head in a paragraph or two.