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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on January 17, 2020, 04:55:17 AM

Title: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 17, 2020, 04:55:17 AM
So this is a very interesting excerpt.

!!!SPOILER WARNING!!!

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Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 17, 2020, 06:19:31 AM
Well, someone please reminds me if Harry still has soulfire? I bet it would be a strong weapon in that situation.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 17, 2020, 06:39:22 AM
He has, but it didn't prove particularly effective against HWWBefore. In saying that, I mostly think that is because Harry hasn't figured out how best to use it in that situation.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 17, 2020, 07:49:28 AM
I agree
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 17, 2020, 01:10:06 PM


   That there are some big nasty things out there that even Eb fears...
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 17, 2020, 01:34:28 PM
Yeah, like Drakul. But not some basic monster.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 17, 2020, 09:54:39 PM
... But not some basic monster.
It's an Outsider.

Even if it's not one of their Walkers or other major figures, it's still an unreasonably-tough target for magic; not a "basic monster."
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 18, 2020, 01:39:20 AM
Well, I am pretty sure Drakul is also an Outsider but anyway - it might no be a 'basic' monster, but it seems like a relatively low-level Outsider, which Goblins and other Fae seemed to be able to kill.

And from what Jim has said about Eb, he was even wilder and more gung-ho than Harry!

Unless the Cornerhound is specifically deadly in a certain way to Wizards or something, I don't really see why Eb would be more afraid in this situation than taking on Vampires or Demons or Faeries etc.

EDIT:
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Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Snark Knight on January 18, 2020, 02:50:52 AM
Well, I am pretty sure Drakul is also an Outsider but anyway - it might no be a 'basic' monster, but it seems like a relatively low-level Outsider, which Goblins and other Fae seemed to be able to kill.

Physically. By throwing a ton of expendable cannon fodder at them.

Ebenezar or any non-Starborn wizard are going to have a different issue there. And even Harry has had more practice resisting their mental attacks from the Walkers than sticking evocations to goon outsiders up to this book.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 18, 2020, 03:12:08 AM
SK - see my edit above. I have revised my position somewhat.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on January 18, 2020, 03:47:59 AM
The "most feared wizard on the planet" is the quote. Not most powerful or dangerous. Jim has said the Gatekeeper is the most dangerous and the Merlin is the most powerful.

I wonder if Harry is underestimating himself when he thinks that other guy is the most feared wizard.

Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders. What connects the Fomor to Outsiders? Is it just emerging from the murky depths thing?
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 18, 2020, 05:53:04 AM
SK - see my edit above. I have revised my position somewhat.

That edit is very, very interesting.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 18, 2020, 05:56:05 AM
... it might no be a 'basic' monster, but it seems like a relatively low-level Outsider, which Goblins and other Fae seemed to be able to kill.

And from what Jim has said about Eb, he was even wilder and more gung-ho than Harry!

Unless the Cornerhound is specifically deadly in a certain way to Wizards or something...
They are specifically deadly to wizards, yes.  ALL the Outsiders are -- specifically -- very nearly immune immune to all mortal magic, except the Starborns' magic.

The faerie Hunters didn't use magic to take out the Oustiders ... They physically ripped the Oustiders to shreds, .
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 18, 2020, 06:35:50 AM


   What I am wondering....
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Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: RobReece on January 18, 2020, 04:09:34 PM
Mira
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Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 18, 2020, 04:33:25 PM
Mira
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Rob
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Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 18, 2020, 04:58:34 PM
Marcone would not want to spoil his relations with Mab either.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 18, 2020, 05:38:04 PM
Marcone would not want to spoil his relations with Mab either.

  True, but then....
Quote
Name other vanilla mortals in on the talks?  Or whom of those that are going to be present at the talks know enough mortals to pull this off?  Now it could be that the Foman are pulling a fast one..
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 18, 2020, 05:59:46 PM
It could be the return of Cowl and his ilk. He certainly does not want these peace talks to be a success and they called outsiders before to aid the red court in their war with the white  council. I think Cowl is our main suspect.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 18, 2020, 06:55:03 PM
It could be the return of Cowl and his ilk. He certainly does not want these peace talks to be a success and they called outsiders before to aid the red court in their war with the white  council. I think Cowl is our main suspect.

I think it becomes a question of how well known the peace talks are to begin with.  If it is well known that they are going to take place, I'd agree, but if they are not, then he either has someone on the inside or it is someone else.   
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 18, 2020, 06:59:33 PM
I think it becomes a question of how well known the peace talks are to begin with.  If it is well known that they are going to take place, I'd agree, but if they are not, then he either has someone on the inside or it is someone else.
It takes only one infected in one of the many participating factions to let the outsiders know. I think it is very likely that they have some sources of information probably within the fomor who worked with the red court.

A lot of people know. I do not think it is a big secret.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 18, 2020, 09:20:33 PM
I agree with Arjan theory.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 18, 2020, 10:52:03 PM
Cowl knows the council quite well. He was probably an active member at some point. He hides his identity so he has an identity to protect. That might just be a white council identity. Cowl’s source of information could simply be Cowl.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 18, 2020, 11:57:59 PM
Cowl knows the council quite well. He was probably an active member at some point. He hides his identity so he has an identity to protect. That might just be a white council identity. Cowl’s source of information could simply be Cowl.

I think that is too simple for the story line.  As in just because we haven't seen Cowl in a while he'd be the one behind the Outsiders coming to the party.  I doubt that he could hide himself among the White Council, he totally reeks of black magic.   He could have a spy though.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 19, 2020, 01:16:09 AM
Marcone has plenty of other ways to get muscle, and he is a pragmatist. If he wanted to disrupt the peace talks, there are plenty of more mortal ways to do it. Like bombs and bullets. If he really wanted a monster, why pick an Outsider? Whole menagerie of Norse monsters, not to mention all the other types that I am sure Monoc could help with. Why pick something so dangerous and unpredictable (of which information is scant)? Not to mention (as has previously been pointed out) that Vadderung wouldn't stand for it. Not to mention freaking Mab, who literally last book worked with Marcone.

Now it could be Cowl, but it doesn't have to be. Just as likely him as not. And just because a Wizard doesn't use black magic, doesn't mean he can't. Harry's magic is tainted but it doesn't stop him being on the Council. Freaking Eb has used black magic by those standards, and he is on the Senior Council! Cowl's magic does not reek. It merely is tainted, much like Harry and Eb and probably Molly. He could very well be still hiding and an active member on the Council. The White Council is so arrogant they couldn't imagine anyone had infiltrated them, and look how far Peabody got. Not to mention how many other agents are likely on the Council. Cristos comes to mind, and he certainly has some shady support (which if you cast your mind back, apprehended younger Wardens at the end of Changes). I think we are about to learn a lot about what has happened to the White Council in the time between Changes and now. And I reckon Cristos will be more powerful and influential than ever.

It could also just be another Cowl acolyte, or another "Black Council" operative. That is just as likely as not.

It could be those same humans that aided the Red Court during the war. Almost certainly the same group.

And for those that were wondering about the Fomor-Outsider connection, I did post a WAG a while back but I might post an updated version in light of some new information and thoughts. But what I will say for now is that there is a clear link that these groups are all being pushed around from behind the scenes, and the Fomor seem to have taken the place of the "face" of the enemy whilst the real foe stays in the shadows. And I think the Fomor have been linked with the strangeness in the supernatural world of recent times, and every time things get weird (for the supernatural world) Outsiders always seem to be involved.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 19, 2020, 02:32:36 AM
I think that is too simple for the story line.  As in just because we haven't seen Cowl in a while he'd be the one behind the Outsiders coming to the party.  I doubt that he could hide himself among the White Council, he totally reeks of black magic.   He could have a spy though.
We actually do not see him use that much black magic. He usually hates some monsters in to do his killing and he did not raise zombies in dead beat. Peabody did a lot of black magic undetected inside council headquarters for years.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 19, 2020, 03:51:35 AM
I think Marcone has too much common sense to mix with Outsiders. Of course, I could be wrong, but that is what I think
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 19, 2020, 04:51:57 AM
Excellent points both, Dina and Arjan.

Although Arjan I believe Cowl did use necromancy in Dead Beat (both early in the book and later on). I don't believe him summoned spirits or zombies though. He seems to have a very different view of it than Grevane and Corpsetaker. Consider his student's views. I don't think there was a specific passage describing him doing it, but I think it was implied a few times. Except of course for when he actually did the Darkhallow. That was using a specific onscreen use of necromancy.

And Peabody is an excellent example of black magic going undetected, or at least its origin misdirected.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 19, 2020, 09:04:44 AM
I think Marcone has too much common sense to mix with Outsiders. Of course, I could be wrong, but that is what I think
It also does not agree with all his curent alliances. Gard, Vadderung, Mab, Hades,....

They would all desert him and become his enemies.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 19, 2020, 11:57:58 AM
Quote
And Peabody is an excellent example of black magic going undetected, or at least its origin misdirected.

  But did Peabody actually do black magic?   He used ink that was laced with a potion that could
make others submit to his will,  a love potion can be said to do the same thing.  Remember Harry
made a love potion in Storm Front, he was under the Doom at the time.  He was just playing around
in his lab at the time, now if it was black magic easily detectable, would he even consider it?  Morgan
would have taken his head in a heart beat.  So it may not be strictly legal, but at the same time not
be considered black magic.   Also when Harry first meets Cowl he describes his aura as reeking of black magic..  It leaves stains that cannot be removed..  Even Harry carries some stains.  So I doubt that Cowl could go into the Council undetected, now he might have a follower or two who could get
away with it. 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 19, 2020, 12:40:48 PM
It was not a potion that did all the work for him because. Peabody did many things with the younger wizards that probably required a more sensitive individualised approach. A potion to increase lust is one thing and will probably work on most people and is not inherently evil. It does not alter the mind directly and it can help some couples if taken voluntarily and knowingly in a controlled environment.

As Ebenezar said the ink assisted with mental manipulation probably by making the subject more vulnerable, Peabody still had to do the work.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 19, 2020, 07:00:29 PM
It was not a potion that did all the work for him because. Peabody did many things with the younger wizards that probably required a more sensitive individualised approach. A potion to increase lust is one thing and will probably work on most people and is not inherently evil. It does not alter the mind directly and it can help some couples if taken voluntarily and knowingly in a controlled environment.

As Ebenezar said the ink assisted with mental manipulation probably by making the subject more vulnerable, Peabody still had to do the work.

   Yes, but mind manipulation while it breaks one of the Seven Laws isn't black magic,  so Peabody
would not stand out.   Harry did sense black magic in his duel with Cowl, however he didn't mention it as far as Kumori went, he also describes a nauseating greasy feel one gets when black magic is sent one's way.   If Peabody was using it at all the other wizards would have figured it out very quickly.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on January 20, 2020, 04:26:34 AM
Mind Control is black magic. See Proven Guilty, Chs. 5, 40, 42.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 20, 2020, 05:09:04 AM
Mind Control is black magic. See Proven Guilty, Chs. 5, 40, 42.
 
  Mind control and making a mind vulnerable to suggestion by way of a potion are not quite the same, as in a love potion.  Mind control is physically going into someone's mind with your mind to manipulate him or her.  Peabody didn't do that, the ink made the person vulnerable to suggestion, he never went into anyone's mind like Molly did.   That is how he was able to get away with it for so many years.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 20, 2020, 05:22:14 AM
 
  Mind control and making a mind vulnerable to suggestion by way of a potion are not quite the same, as in a love potion.  Mind control is physically going into someone's mind with your mind to manipulate him or her.  Peabody didn't do that, the ink made the person vulnerable to suggestion, he never went into anyone's mind like Molly did.   That is how he was able to get away with it for so many years.
What Peabody did in Luccio’s mind went quite far and he did all kind of things with young wizzards minds.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 20, 2020, 12:29:26 PM
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What Peabody did in Luccio’s mind went quite far and he did all kind of things with young wizzards minds.

But without the ink it is doubtful that he'd be able to do it.  He didn't do it to Harry mainly because he
never came in contact with the ink.  He should not have been able to go into any wizard mind, even
the young one without them being aware of it.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 20, 2020, 02:27:57 PM

   What I am wondering....
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Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: toodeep on January 21, 2020, 09:39:50 PM
   What I am wondering....
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What I am wondering is why every time something like this happens they seem to look at each other and go, "someone is summoning outsiders" and then go fight the outsiders, and never seem to do crap all to find/stop the summoners?  I mean, Harry should have captured one of the humans on the barges attacking his island and turned them over to Mab.  That would have been useful as she could have ripped information they never even knew they had out of them.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: toodeep on January 21, 2020, 09:44:34 PM
Peabody didn't do that, the ink made the person vulnerable to suggestion, he never went into anyone's mind like Molly did.   That is how he was able to get away with it for so many years.
I don't think you turn people into walking time bombs and assassins without mind magic.  I think the drugs in the ink only made them more susceptible to the magic, it didn't do the work itself.  If there were drugs out there that allowed that without magic the CIA would rule the world.  I think it is probably that an experienced wizard, already fairly set in their ways before turning to black magic, and probably watching to make sure they avoid the strongest stains of it, can "wash" their aura or do other activities to hide their contamination if they try.  As I recall, Luccio didn't really pick up anything from Kemmler or his magic in her encounter with him, and yet by that time he was an accomplished necromancer, so I think it must be possible to hide at least some degree of black magic use.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on January 21, 2020, 10:19:42 PM
[1] What I am wondering is why every time something like this happens they seem to look at each other and go, "someone is summoning outsiders" and then go fight the outsiders, and never seem to do crap all to find/stop the summoners?  [2] I mean, Harry should have captured one of the humans on the barges attacking his island and turned them over to Mab.  That would have been useful as she could have ripped information they never even knew they had out of them.
As to 1, yes. As to 2, he was a little busy that night.

As to the ink, I'll have to wait until I read that book again, but I thought the ink was thaumaturgical link specially suited for mind magic.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on January 21, 2020, 10:34:43 PM
What I am wondering is why every time something like this happens they seem to look at each other and go, "someone is summoning outsiders" and then go fight the outsiders, and never seem to do crap all to find/stop the summoners?  I mean, Harry should have captured one of the humans on the barges attacking his island and turned them over to Mab.  That would have been useful as she could have ripped information they never even knew they had out of them.
When someone sets your house on fire you are more interested in saving your house and your life than catching the guy with the match. And in White Knight he feeds Madge to  the demon she summoned.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 21, 2020, 10:48:47 PM
When someone sets your house on fire you are more interested in saving your house and your life than catching the guy with the match. And in White Knight he feeds Madge to  the demon she summoned.
In White KNight there is no real mystery about who summoned the outsiders for what purpose. In Cold Days Harry was not really in a position to take prisoners.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Sir Huron Stone on January 22, 2020, 09:55:22 AM
But without the ink it is doubtful that he'd be able to do it.  He didn't do it to Harry mainly because he
never came in contact with the ink.  He should not have been able to go into any wizard mind, even
the young one without them being aware of it.

If I remember correctly though, the ink was meant more for the Senior Council. As they said, the older the wizard, the harder it is to get them to bend. Though it has more to do with the mind being settled in the body, vs the actual age of said mind, hence why Lucio could be manipulated. The ink was there to help him push and nudge the senior council into doing what he wanted.

Plus, remember, the young ones were baptised in fire. They got plenty of education on the hot and heavy evocation side, but they probably skimped out on the mind manipulation portion of the curriculum. And they were just so dang young. They probably had no clue what was going on, since they'd never experienced it before. Most of them were anywhere from 16 to what, 25, maybe 30 for the oldest like Carlos? I'm 24 and I'm still experiencing all sorts of new stuff.

Never underestimate inexperience.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 22, 2020, 03:45:36 PM
Quote
If I remember correctly though, the ink was meant more for the Senior Council. As they said, the older the wizard, the harder it is to get them to bend. Though it has more to do with the mind being settled in the body, vs the actual age of said mind, hence why Lucio could be manipulated. The ink was there to help him push and nudge the senior council into doing what he wanted.

Plus, remember, the young ones were baptised in fire. They got plenty of education on the hot and heavy evocation side, but they probably skimped out on the mind manipulation portion of the curriculum. And they were just so dang young. They probably had no clue what was going on, since they'd never experienced it before. Most of them were anywhere from 16 to what, 25, maybe 30 for the oldest like Carlos? I'm 24 and I'm still experiencing all sorts of new stuff.

Never underestimate inexperience.

I don't but at the same time relatively young Harry recognized when Corpsetaker was in his head back in Dead Beat.   His defenses sucked because the Council frowns on anything having to do with mind magic including defenses against the likes of Corpsetaker, but my point is, he knewshe was in his head.   We all assume that Peabody used some kind of mind magic in addition to the ink.
Perhaps, what I am saying the ink not only made the mind vulnerable, it made it impossible for the mind to perceive that anyone was in it.  Or Peabody didn't need to get into anyone's head, the ink did all the damage and all he had to do is suggest.   All that was needed was a drug, administered by
the ink that entered the bloodstream via the skin and was designed to target the part of the brain that deals with will power and judgement.  It was also subtle in how it worked because the effects
were so slight that no one noticed that Luccio or Eb or anyone else on the Council was acting different.  The effects were cumulative and affected all that came in contact, so it was simply not noticed.  It would have continued except for the fact that Harry had never came in contact and was determined to clear Morgan.   Had Peabody succeeded in getting Harry to sign papers like he was supposed to do, Peabody would have won.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on January 22, 2020, 04:08:50 PM
Corpstaker was doing a heavy mental assault which is probably as easy to detect as it is difficult to defend against with Harry’s limited knowledge at the time. Peabody was doing the subtle thing which is more difficult to detect.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: toodeep on January 22, 2020, 07:20:58 PM
I think a key point to keeping Peabody from reeking of black magic was that while he “wired” all these people to give him control over them, he didn’t activate them until Turn Coat (that we know of).  It may be like throwing fire all day long every day – its not black magic until the fire kills someone.  So the act of loading them up with mental control “software” might not be black magic until the software is activated.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on January 22, 2020, 07:32:50 PM
Well, I am pretty sure Drakul is also an Outsider but anyway - it might no be a 'basic' monster, but it seems like a relatively low-level Outsider, which Goblins and other Fae seemed to be able to kill.

And from what Jim has said about Eb, he was even wilder and more gung-ho than Harry!

Unless the Cornerhound is specifically deadly in a certain way to Wizards or something, I don't really see why Eb would be more afraid in this situation than taking on Vampires or Demons or Faeries etc.

EDIT:
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Came here to mention Hounds of Tindalos. "Cornerhound" sounds like a slang description of one of those bad boys.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 22, 2020, 07:53:39 PM
I think a key point to keeping Peabody from reeking of black magic was that while he “wired” all these people to give him control over them, he didn’t activate them until Turn Coat (that we know of).  It may be like throwing fire all day long every day – its not black magic until the fire kills someone.  So the act of loading them up with mental control “software” might not be black magic until the software is activated.

 That sounds like a plausible theory..  It fits with mine that the ink was deadening those areas of the mind that would detect manipulation, also behavior.  It is no secret that certain drugs can have a huge influence over brain chemistry.   That was the plan, and who better to carry it out than the secretary wizard who constantly needed senior wizards to sign and read his endless paperwork?
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on January 22, 2020, 08:07:21 PM
Some of this stuff is spoiler-ish, but most of it is borderline. Read at your own risk.

By the way, if you like super weird, uncomfortable satire/humor, there's this series of videos by the comedy group Wham City. It's called the Children of the Mirror. I promise the concept of Hounds of Tindalos is crucial to understanding what the hell is going on in this series (which follows the True Art is Incomprehensible trope pretty well while also maintaining surface level entertainment):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFw0b8t4ICM&list=PLmu6JBK17BzjH0HBjhdUXc2IfrCRQGhcD

Interesting bit is that the Hounds weren't in Lovecraft's original works, but were added in by a different author, Frank Long, one of Lovecraft's good friends. I think it was the first time HP let someone else write for his setting. Lovecraft canonized it (what is and what is not canon in Lovecraftian fiction is always debatable, because so many other authors contributed to the universe over the past hundred-ish years. Pretty much EVERYTHING is canon as far as I'm concerned, Derleth's attempt at codification be damned) at some point a few years later in one of his longer pieces. I forget which.

Anyway, the Hounds are entities that are pretty much the perfect Pursuit Predator. If you catch the attention of one of them, they will hunt you FOREVER. There is basically zero escape. They can travel through any sharp-ish angle (hence, I assume, Eb's use of the term "Cornerhound"), like the end of a hallway.

You wanna know the best part? The really awesome, tinfoil-hattish part? The way you catch their attention is by traveling through f*&^ing time. The presence of one (or more) during Peace Talks is going to launch thousands of Time Travel WAGs (unless it's explained thoroughly in the book. Just saying "Ah, a mortal must've summoned one" won't be enough).

I mean... why specifically one of those, even if it's an Outsider? It's one of just three named Outsiders in 15 books—Walkers, Nemesis, and Cornerhounds (the "mistfiend" from Turn Coat I took to be a Nevernever creature that had been infused with Mordite rather than an Outsider itself. If it is indeed a true Outsider, then it's four). You very rarely hear Eb (or anyone, really) talk about different species or categories of Outsiders, just kinda "oh, that was an Outsider." Harry describes the scene at the Outer Gates as one in which most of those fighting have too little in common to really categorize. So I posit that if Eb can recognize this particular type of Outsider on sight, it must have appeared on the mortal plane often enough to warrant naming beyond "Outsider, Type 87645."
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on January 22, 2020, 08:38:29 PM
I'd also like to point out that it took me a solid five minutes to realize that Eb was using a super dated term for "Yeah, most likely" when he says, "Belike." I seriously thought he was confirming that a specific person or entity was responsible for what they were seeing. Like Batman talking to Robin.
The green paint splattered across the wall, and Robin could still hear echoes of laughter.
"Is that what I think it is?" Robin asked.
"Joker," Batman confirmed.


I spent five minutes racking my brain for any previous mention of a Dresden villain named Belike. Kept thinking of Belloq from Indiana Jones.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 22, 2020, 08:53:05 PM
It confused me a little too, until I deduced the meaning. I don't think I have ever read "belike" before.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 22, 2020, 09:33:12 PM
It confused me a little too, until I deduced the meaning. I don't think I have ever read "belike" before.

Yeah, he wasn't naming anyone, Jim does use some older terms.  I am reading " Book of Lost Tales I" by J.R.R. Tolkien, in the back his son Christopher included a list of arcane terms that his father used.. What caught my eye was the word, "fey" was on the list.  I don't know how many of you remember but that is one of the words Jim used to describe one of the possible futures for Molly during her soul gaze with Harry back in Proven Guilty, a lot of us racked our brains over it...  This is what caught my eye;

Fey The old senses were 'fated, approaching death; presaging death'.  It seems unlikely that the later sense 'possessing or displaying magical, fairy-like, or unearthly qualities' (O.E.D. Supplement) was intended. '

Not the first part, but the the fairy-like, magical, and unearthly qualities would describe the future
Winter Lady as seen by Harry in his soul gaze with Molly.  Sorry for straying off topic a bit, but that really struck me when I read it the other night..  So it isn't shocking that Jim would throw in another arcane term like belike..
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on January 22, 2020, 10:19:14 PM
Well, it is not shocking because Eb is old, really old, so he sometimes speaks with arcane words. And about Fey I just thought Jim meant "fairy" and it fitted what happened later for Molly.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on January 23, 2020, 12:23:41 AM
Madge was in Blood Rites.

If I remember correctly though, the ink was meant more for the Senior Council. ...

Most of them were anywhere from 16 to what, 25, maybe 30 for the oldest like Carlos?
Peabody wanted Harry to sign a receipt for the investigation file, so I assume he was going to use the ink on Harry.

Carlos was 25 in White Night. Turn Coat is three years later. So Carlos would only be about 28.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 23, 2020, 01:20:50 AM
Peabody wanted Harry to sign a receipt for the investigation file, so I assume he was going to use the ink on Harry.

I'm pretty sure Peabody made several efforts to get Harry inked.  IIRC the main reason Luccio got romantically involved was to give Peabody someone on Dresden's inner circle.

Come to think of it...

WARNING:  new WAG upcoming (at least, one I haven't read before):

I suspect that Peabody was behind Harry's greycloak'ing in Dead Beat.  I'm sure Luccio would've considered "drafting" such a brawny combat-wizard anyway (for all the good reasons they discussed, there in Mac's), but I bet Peabody nudged her decision:  once Harry was an "official" of the Council, I bet Peabody would have expected he could get Harry inked in short order!

Then Luccio went and got a new body, un-ink'ed(!).  But young, and horny, and malleable, and extra-susceptible to his ink ...

...

... and by then, Peabody realized that Harry Dresden loved to be annoying and obnoxious, and would be exceedingly-difficult to get ink'ed.

So Harry gets a hot Italian girlfriend, and Peabody gets a close-up view of Dresden.
 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on January 23, 2020, 05:29:27 AM
Well, it is not shocking because Eb is old, really old, so he sometimes speaks with arcane words. And about Fey I just thought Jim meant "fairy" and it fitted what happened later for Molly.

I also had thought the other meaning when I first read it in Proven Guilty, the one about death, not perhaps her own, but those she may cause someday.  I am still not totally convinced that the meaning was simply the fairy part.  Why? Because Molly has no problem with repeating the offense that put her under the Doom.  Now as Lady she has no restraints upon her at all if she so chooses. Most likely it is this quality that attracted her to Mab and Lea.  I also think Harry has always chosen to be a bit blind to that reality.  That might be the real fault that Lea saw in his training of her, he has never seen Molly as a killer, thus never shaped it to advantage.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: toodeep on January 23, 2020, 04:13:20 PM
I originally wondered if it might really just be age making Eb’s hand shake.  I remember reading somewhere th at Eb is “getting up there” since he is far enough along a geriocrasy to get on the senior council.  But then I read that LaFortier was 270 when he died, and I think Mai is older than him.  Even was reportedly a “young buck” running around in the war of 1812 I though I heard Jim say, so if he was 30 then, he would only be about 230 in the series.  That gives him easy 40+ years more to go
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 23, 2020, 06:06:10 PM
I originally wondered if it might really just be age making Eb’s hand shake.  I remember reading somewhere th at Eb is “getting up there” since he is far enough along a geriocrasy to get on the senior council.  But then I read that LaFortier was 270 when he died, and I think Mai is older than him.  Even was reportedly a “young buck” running around in the war of 1812 I though I heard Jim say, so if he was 30 then, he would only be about 230 in the series.  That gives him easy 40+ years more to go
He's got much longer than than that, I think:  Eb is a STRONG wizard, and he tosses around some REALLY potent magic.  These are things WoJ says make the wizards longevity effect stronger.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 24, 2020, 07:38:35 AM
And Mai is about 400 ish years old, so Eb has plenty to go. The Gatekeeper is over 1000 years old, which is likely also due to time-warp Nevernever stuff, maybe even some more serious "laws of magic" time travel.

But also it really isn't his age making his hand shake, as it is quite clear that he is shaking out of fear. The passage flat out states it.

Kindler - pretty much exactly my point in the edit. I had read about the Frank Long bit too but didn't want to include it as like you I agree that a lot of "Lovecraftian mythos" is not just Lovecraft himself and found it simpler not to. Should hopefully make Peace Talks a very interesting book, plus whatever else Jim has cooked up!
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on January 24, 2020, 01:41:43 PM
@Kindler
The why is simply because Jim needed a new Monster Of the Week.  Why Eb may recognize this one is because he may have run into it on the retreat to Chicago in Proven Guilty. Michael's description is vague but it includes tentacles.
Quote
If you catch the attention of one of them, they will hunt you FOREVER.
  Just saying.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 25, 2020, 05:53:59 AM
... Michael's description is vague but it includes tentacles...
OTOH, he also described that as "the usual" so it's hardly a definitive field-mark!
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 26, 2020, 03:38:45 AM
Quote
If you catch the attention of one of them, they will hunt you FOREVER.
Just saying.

Very interesting idea.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: 123Chikadee on January 26, 2020, 06:32:03 PM
Right! This would explain why time magic is forbidden by the council. I wonder if Rashid has to fight these creatures off all the time or what?
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 26, 2020, 11:55:14 PM
Quote
If you catch the attention of one of them, they will hunt you FOREVER.
Just saying.

That's the original Hounds of Tindalos; but of course we cannot be sure that the Cthulhu-Mythos origin of the Hounds (and other Mythos elements (which AFAIK is our best model for Outsiders, besides what canon shows and WoJ says)) is any proof of HPL being as specifically-correct-in-every-detail as Stoker was about BCV's.  "Cornerhounds" may be similar to HoT's but not identical...

IIRC there is WoJ that HPL was "onto something" in a similar manner to Stoker, but of course the Outsiders are a much more diverse and unknowable group than the BCV's.  Dracula was explicitly a "bible for BCV-slaying."  I don't think anything comparable is POSSIBLE for Outsiders; at best, the Mythos Stories are more of a "survival guide," a how to not die guidebook, in hopes of being rescued.  And a limited Guidebook, at that:  recall the Cold Days scene at the Outer Gates, where the Outsiders were more notworthy for NOT having any commonalities, than for any recognizable types or kinds.
 
Last but not least:  HoT's aren't even HPL's work!  So even if HPL himself was "onto something" (per WoJ) there is a clear line of argument that HoT's aren't part of that.  They were invented by one of his admiring sub-authors (whom HPL then later explicitly honored by copying into his own work).  But "the Mythos" as a whole is only partially HPL's work, and I suspect at this point it'd take a some effort (which may already have been done, in some wiki or article or somesuch) to extract the pure-HPL from the extended Mythos corpus.   AND YET... here they are, Cornerhounds, very Tindalosian, and explicitly Outsider-y.

I dunno, maybe... maybe the "Cthulhu Mythos" is sort of "Outsider-Template-ish," and Outsiders find it much easier to manifest if they do so via something Mythos-flavored that a bunch of humans already conceptualize...?  Maybe?  Call it a WAG...

All of which is, I guess, my way of arguing that we really cannot draw many firm conclusions at this point!
 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on January 27, 2020, 12:30:09 AM
I've never read Lovecraft.  I don't generally care for horror as the real world scratches that particular itch. 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on January 27, 2020, 09:46:50 PM
I've never read Lovecraft.  I don't generally care for horror as the real world scratches that particular itch.
Ditto, more or less.

I think I read one of his shorts (in an anthology I was reading) many many years ago.  Also don't play CoC the RPG, except on a rare occasion when it's the game my group is playing, and I just play along; maybe 5ish times in total?

But I do look into the Mythos, sometimes... such as when DF is making clear Mythos references!  ;-)
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Avernite on January 28, 2020, 07:17:48 PM
I've never read Lovecraft.  I don't generally care for horror as the real world scratches that particular itch.
To be honest I didn't find it too horrible - as a non-native speakers, many of the more arcane words to describe certain horribleness just didn't come across as bad. You get a few stories where the horror is deeper (and thereby still comes across) but sometimes the horror is not much worse than 'oh the horror, those people interbred with other human 'races''  ::)
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on January 28, 2020, 09:00:31 PM
Lovecraft isn't horror, it's Cosmic Horror. It targets a different fear response: inevitability and madness rather than sheer terror. Also helplessness; there's virtually nothing the protagonists can do most of the time. How are you supposed to stop Azathoth? You're not. The good news is that Azathoth doesn't notice you anyway, because he's taking a nap. If he wakes up, the universe ends. Better hope he stays asleep.

It's kinda like knowing about gamma ray bursts. Life on Earth could randomly come to an end one day if a star halfway across the Milky Way goes supernova. There is literally nothing anyone here can do to prevent that (though there's also nothing anyone here can do to cause that either).

The most hopeful stories in the Cthulhu Mythos (the collective works of many authors) are usually the ones with human antagonists rather than Things From Beyond. Sometimes it's stuff like "there's a cult trying to summon or awaken a Thing, protagonist finds out about it, temporarily thwarts the plan, and must live with the knowledge that anyone else could pick up and complete the rite whenever they want." Then there's the "group of people who Bred With Something They Shouldn't Have" kind of stories (Innsmouth stuff). Those are usually all right, too.

And yeah, obviously Jim needed a new Monster. But having one that appears to be based off of an existing creature and stating that it's an Outsider is extremely interesting. I'm already smelling tinfoil. It all depends on how much of the source material for the Cornerhound (if indeed Hounds of Tindalos are the source for the Dresden creature) Jim wants to keep. We'll know based on either Eb's/Bonea's/Someone Else's exposition or Harry's internal narration: if it mentions Time at all, then hold onto your butts.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on January 28, 2020, 10:56:14 PM
Quote
Lovecraft isn't horror, it's Cosmic Horror. It targets a different fear response: inevitability and madness rather than sheer terror.
So I assumed, thus my comment on the real world.  I like stories with hope. 

Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Yuillegan on January 29, 2020, 12:14:18 AM
Kindler, great argument!

I quite like the sobering nature of Lovecraft, and would find it both amusing and interesting if Jim pulled a fast one on us and for example revealed that TWG is Azahoth or something. He almost certainly won't, but it would be quite funny.

Mostly I think beings like Azahoth are analogous to the Old Ones (dresdenverse - can we really say that if they exist outside his Creation...?) and TWG/Creator/Almighty seems above or at least more than equal to them. But it will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I do find it interesting how much DnD is in there though, although almost certainly Jim has combined the Demons of the Abyss with that of the Far Realm to create the Outsiders.

To my mind, they gave us this scene (with this particular monster) for a reason. They want us to think about it. It wasn't just by accident - which says to me that this monster isn't going to be just a run of the mill, in this scene and never again type of problem. They could have given us any scene with many other types of villains. But they chose this.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on January 29, 2020, 08:14:42 PM
A lot of the time, "they" give us something tantalizing but not spoilery. Or at least try to.

So I assumed, thus my comment on the real world.  I like stories with hope. 
Same.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on January 29, 2020, 08:44:49 PM
I don't generally read horror, because I personally dislike gore. I prefer fear over squick. Like, I'll never watch or even be able to enjoy stuff like Hostel or Saw (after the first one, anyway), because I mostly just find it gross rather than scary. I remember when Fear Factor was first airing, and like half of the "challenges" were "eat this bucket of spiders." Not exactly measuring fear there.

But genuine fear, tension, and horrifying suspense? Hell yeah, I'm on board. I remember reading 'Salem's Lot at three in the morning by candlelight. I spent the whole night holding a cross and keeping one eye on my bedroom window. I didn't move until the sun came up.

Lovecraft doesn't usually illicit that strong of a fear response for me. I mostly read it because I find it terribly interesting. Most of it is unsettling rather than scary, in my opinion.

BUT! If you're not into hopelessness, you're not into hopelessness!
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on January 29, 2020, 09:27:02 PM
I don't generally read horror, because I personally dislike gore. I prefer fear over squick. Like, I'll never watch or even be able to enjoy stuff like Hostel or Saw (after the first one, anyway), because I mostly just find it gross rather than scary. I remember when Fear Factor was first airing, and like half of the "challenges" were "eat this bucket of spiders." Not exactly measuring fear there.

But genuine fear, tension, and horrifying suspense? Hell yeah, I'm on board. I remember reading 'Salem's Lot at three in the morning by candlelight. I spent the whole night holding a cross and keeping one eye on my bedroom window. I didn't move until the sun came up.

Lovecraft doesn't usually illicit that strong of a fear response for me. I mostly read it because I find it terribly interesting. Most of it is unsettling rather than scary, in my opinion.

BUT! If you're not into hopelessness, you're not into hopelessness!
The scariest thing I've seen is Alien. This film made my wife furious with me.    The Exorcist is right up there as well.  However John Carpenters the Thing while scary left me cold since it is unresolved.  The difference is in the endings. As a general rule print can't hit me that way. so I've read Preston and Childs, The Odd Thomas Books and so on. And I don't do torture porn.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Just Al on January 29, 2020, 09:27:53 PM
I read Horror for much the same reasons I read Sci-Fi and fantasy. I enjoy seeing what an author can do with an idea. Much of it is meh, relying on the gross-out factor rather than coming up with something that can genuinely be frightening.

That said, I'm hard to frighten because I have to believe something could actually happen before I'm frightened by it.
Semi-immortal serial killers?  yea, right. Nuclear war? I could see that happening.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on January 30, 2020, 03:38:10 AM
To get back to the OP.  Because of the amount of time since the last book, I; make that we, have had a long time to think about Peace Talks.  I; and probably a few of you out there, have thought this book could be the right time and place for Harry to permanently lose his mentor.  It's not that we want to see Ebenezer die, but the basic structure of the Hero's cycle is that at some point the mentor character leaves the scene; usually feet first, leaving the hero to stand on their own.

Of course, the risk of doing something expected (predictable) is that the writer's work can start to look stale and unimaginative.  So I'm thinking something else might be about to happen.  Something that makes Harry stand out to the rest of the White Council, but doesn't necessarily kill off Eb.  Plus, Jim has said he prefers to torture his characters, as opposed to just killing them outright.

So re-reading that scene with Ebenezer and Harry, I was taken with the phrase, "the most feared wizard on the planet."  Ebenezer is feared because he wields the Blackstaff.  Perhaps not every potential supernatural enemy is as well informed as Kincaid is on this fact, but I bet every potential supernatural enemy knows that Ebenezer McCoy can do some extremely scary stuff.  So we see Eb's hands are trembling from the psychic attack he is undergoing.  Harry also felt this attack, but he fought it down and is in better control of himself.  Now add to this something from way back, the last conversation Harry had with Lash just before she took a psychic bullet for him.  She told Harry he had "the potential to wield power over Outsiders."  Well so far that power has allowed Harry to recover from and resist Outsider mental attacks and trash talk one of the Walkers, HWWBf.  Oh, and Harry's name is now some kind of a weapon.  It's impressive that Harry can stand up to Outsiders, but it's not my idea of how a wizard would "wield power over Outsiders."  I believe there's got to be more to what Harry can do to or with Outsiders that he hasn't discovered yet.

Remember Lucio's reaction when she saw Zombie Sue.  She was impressed but there was more than a little revulsion in her reaction as well.  So imagine the reaction of the Senior Council if Harry publicly demonstrates some of this hidden power over Outsiders.  Depending on how it plays out, I could see a reaction going something like this; "Yea!  You've saved us.  Holy crap, did you see what Dresden did?  Dear God, what if he aimed that power at us?"  As usual, the White Council will misinterpret what they see.   They; and probably a good chuck of the supernatural community, will begin to see Harry Dresden as the most feared wizard on the planet.  They thought Harry was scary when he wiped out the Red Court and came seemingly back from the dead, so now they will see something that scares them even more.  So even if Eb doesn't die in Peace Talks, even with the Blackstaff he won't be able to produce the results that Harry does.  So a kind of changing of the guard occurs, no matter what Eb's fate is.  Oh, something bad could still happen to Eb.  Remember what I said about Jim torturing his characters, but I don't think he has to die in order for Harry to stand on his own.

On a totally unrelated matter.  The Dresden Files being highlighted in Entertainment Weekly?  I don't think that has ever happened before.  Good for Jim that his work is getting a major push.  Jim may be a best selling author, but I doubt his work puts up J.K. Rowling's numbers.  A lot of people in the entertainment industry are looking for the next "Game of Thrones."  (If we forget season 8 and a good chunk of season 7.)  This could be a sign that someone; probably the people who purchased the TV rights to the DF's, are trying to give Jim's work a chance to be the material for that show.         
 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on January 30, 2020, 03:58:44 AM
The Dresden Files starts after Harry encounters his mentor and has perhaps already crossed the threshold. Honestly, the mentor in Storm Front is the film canister under the bed. There is probably a "mentor" moment in each book, and I don't think it's ever been Eb. Maybe, maybe, in Changes. Eb isn't Harry's "mentor" in the actual books. He's Harry's "mentor" in the Dresden Files prequel.

I've never been a big fan of "the Hero's Journey." It's always seemed like a horoscope description of plot. Vague enough to fit most all circumstances without being specific enough to be helpful or useful.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: tacorrific on February 09, 2020, 09:01:51 PM
It sounds like Eb may have had a run in with a cornerhound before, but we don't know when that was.  It could have been before Eb was the badass he is today or it could have gotten the drop on him before he knew what he was up against.  The remembered fear of a close call would be hard to completely ignore, hence the shaking.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on February 13, 2020, 09:14:25 PM
The Dresden Files starts after Harry encounters his mentor and has perhaps already crossed the threshold. Honestly, the mentor in Storm Front is the film canister under the bed. There is probably a "mentor" moment in each book, and I don't think it's ever been Eb. Maybe, maybe, in Changes. Eb isn't Harry's "mentor" in the actual books. He's Harry's "mentor" in the Dresden Files prequel.

I've never been a big fan of "the Hero's Journey." It's always seemed like a horoscope description of plot. Vague enough to fit most all circumstances without being specific enough to be helpful or useful.

Ditto on both counts. I don't really see Eb as much of a mentor, because about 99.5% of his mentorship is informed rather than shown; it's all off-page.

Nor do I really see the Dresden Files truly matching a Hero's Journey anyway. For one, it starts off with Dresden too far along in his career, abilities, and personality/idealism for it to truly apply, in my opinion.

If anyone is Harry's mentor in the books, on the page, I'd say it's Mab, actually.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 13, 2020, 09:27:57 PM


  Justin was Harry's mentor as far as magic goes, he trained him after all.  However all the values
Harry holds about what magic means he got from Eb, Harry states that.  That is why he was so upset when he found out that Eb was the Blackstaff, an assassin, to Harry it flew in the face of all the values Eb taught him, what Eb stood for.   Yes, Eb was a very important mentor to Harry, he is the one who made Harry the man he is today.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Kindler on February 13, 2020, 09:34:13 PM
In the context of a Hero's Journey, it's the mentor you see that matters.
Uncle Owen taught Luke everything he knew, and presumably raised him to be a good guy. It worked. But Luke's first Hero's Journey Mentor is Obi-Wan, not his Aunt or Uncle.
Tavi's mentors are first Bernard (who we do see doing some mentoring) and later Gaius.

Mentors in the HJ are typically the ones you see set the Hero on a Path. We don't see much of that in Dresden, except from Mab. Maybe Lea (and we certainly see that with her relationship to Molly in Ghost Story), too. Eb's role is informed, not really shown. For the most part, Harry's set his own path.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 14, 2020, 05:25:29 AM
Quote

Mentors in the HJ are typically the ones you see set the Hero on a Path. We don't see much of that in Dresden, except from Mab. Maybe Lea (and we certainly see that with her relationship to Molly in Ghost Story), too. Eb's role is informed, not really shown. For the most part, Harry's set his own path.

  I disagree,  if you go back and read how Harry speaks of Eb.  He is his ideal wizard,  all the ethics Harry has as far as magic goes is due to him.  Harry was an angry kid with one foot on the path towards warlockhood, Eb turned that all around, not unlike Obi-Wan.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Con on February 14, 2020, 01:38:52 PM
  I disagree,  if you go back and read how Harry speaks of Eb.  He is his ideal wizard,  all the ethics Harry has as far as magic goes is due to him.  Harry was an angry kid with one foot on the path towards warlockhood, Eb turned that all around, not unlike Obi-Wan.

I'm with Mira. Ebenezar is where Harry gets his ethics, his code his belief in Magic and his purpose to defend people from magical and supernatural elements. It's why he took finding out about the Blackstaff so personally, he agonises over it from Blood Rites through to Proven Guilty when he realises Ebenezar saved his life during his original trial, and Doom of Damocles.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on February 14, 2020, 11:29:53 PM
Nick Christian and his father Malcolm.  And perhaps nick Cristian more then Eb.  Because of what he decided to do and at what cost.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 15, 2020, 05:13:46 AM
Nick Christian and his father Malcolm.  And perhaps nick Cristian more then Eb.  Because of what he decided to do and at what cost.

  Growing up and coming of age people have more than one mentor.  Harry doesn't talk about Nick
Cristian that much, yeah, he perhaps learned his detective craft under him, that makes him a mentor, but he never goes back to Nick for advice, at least not on paper.  Harry's early memories of Malcolm form his a bit, joy in the simple things, love, but he wasn't in Harry's more formative years to be considered a mentor.  Justin taught Harry magic, the pain, the power, the brute force of it, he learned no subtlety from him, though that might merely be the quality of his magic since Elaine according to Harry is much more controlled and subtle.  Then again, Justin might have taught them differently.  Justin definitely counts as a mentor.  As I said, Eb is the Obi-Wan in Harry's life, because he didn't teach mere magic like Justin, Harry had already learned that, Eb taught him what magic is.  Harry goes back again and again to the more mystical aspects of magic, this is what caused his pentacle to light up and burn Bianca..  This he got from Eb, until Blood Rights Harry speaks of Eb in referent tones.  A more recent mentor is Rashid,  from him I believe Harry will learn how to combat the Enemy.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: 123Chikadee on February 15, 2020, 03:57:00 PM
Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of the Hero's Journey either. It's actually more of a basic 'what I've noticed in various folklore and myth' rather than a piece of advice that writers need to use. Technically, Harry doesn't quite fit the mold, but the Hero's Journey is more guidelines than actual rules.
I do wish we could see more of Eb with Young!Harry, but yeah. Mab, Lea, Nick, Justin, Malcolm. All of them act as mentors as well.
Oooh, it'd be very cool if Rashid did act as a mentor for Harry.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Avernite on February 15, 2020, 05:14:06 PM
Heck, Morgan acts as a bit of a mentor ;)

'Do the right thing or else' makes him a lousy mentor, but still.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 15, 2020, 07:54:14 PM
Heck, Morgan acts as a bit of a mentor ;)

'Do the right thing or else' makes him a lousy mentor, but still.

No,  I also wouldn't call Morgan's influence a good one.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 15, 2020, 07:57:45 PM
The hero's journey is a set of steps in a story. "The 12 steps of the hero's journey are...

1. The Ordinary World
2. The Call of Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting the Mentor
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach to the Inmost Cave
8. The Ordeal
9. Reward (Seizing the Sword)
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return with the Elixir"

The mentor gives the hero what he needs to answer the call after refusing it. The mentor pushes the hero into accepting the call. Sometimes this is by literally giving them what they need to succeed such as Lea giving Harry the ruby in Changes. Sometimes it's something the hero already has like grit or an object.

Justin, Eb, and Nick Christian are literally Harry's mentors. For the purposes of the hero's journey, they are, for the most part, not. Lea is also literally his mentor, but she also often fits the hero's journey role of a mentor as well.

What Eb has taught Harry could often be considered the mentor, but it wouldn't actually be Eb because the hero's journey is a structure. It's generally considered "bad" structure to have things out of order.

At some point in almost every book, Bob could probably be said to be the mentor.

In Storm Front, the little film canister fits the hero's journey role of the mentor.

In Fool Moon, I don't think Harry refuses the call.

The same goes for Grave Peril unless you assume that the call to adventure is the invitation to the vampire ball. Then Harry's own experience and skill is the mentor. (A prime example of why I'm no fan of the hero's journey. It can be bent hard enough to make work for any story because it doesn't have any real meaning).

Oooh, it'd be very cool if Rashid did act as a mentor for Harry.
To your point, Rashid fits the hero's journey mentor role to a t in Summer Knight. It's Rashid who acts to push Harry along every step of the way and gives him what he needs to finish his journey. He could also be described as a mentor in Proven Guilty and Cold Days.

In Death Masks, I can't think of a refusal of the call. The loa is probably the best example of a mentor in that one.

In Blood Rites Harry refuses the call at Raith Manor and either Thomas or Margaret gives him what he needs to move forward. I'd argue Margaret.

Lea is in Changes for sure. Justin is more the call to adventure in Harry's flash backs than anything else. Lea would again be a mentor in the Harry vs. Justin story.

I read once that the mentor in most westerns was the main character's grit or some other character trait. Nine times out of ten, Harry doesn't refuse the call, and it's kind of hard to say that Harry starts off in the ordinary world. Almost every time Harry does refuse the call, the first four steps of the hero's journey are Mab.

My point is that the hero's journey is mostly bull and is basically useless for analyzing what Jim is going to do. It's completely useless as a means of predicting Eb's death because Eb isn't Harry's mentor as defined by the hero's journey. Eb, Justin, and Harry aren't even properly described as mentors in their relationship to their apprentices. The proper word is master. The death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. It's lazy writing for when the mentor should obviously be the one handling the story's problem because the mentor is so much more competent than the hero. It's the same reason so many hero's are orphans (because no responsible parent would let their children go on such adventures). Eb isn't very involved in Harry's adventures. We've only seen him in five books and this excerpt from a book.

Jim is a better writer than to stick to a hero's journey script like that for each installment. He might be doing it for the whole story, but I still think you'd have to stretch some or all of the steps to their breaking points to make that kind of analysis work. The hero's journey, in my opinion, is a framework for many (maybe even most or all) ancient stories and myths. Those stories are often powerful and influential. Therefore their structure will be copied and repeated for as long as we remember them or their offspring (or their causes if Jung was correct). Sometimes the coping will be on purpose, and sometimes just because they shaped us. But they aren't necessary parts of satisfying storytelling.

A better predictor of Eb's death is Jim's repeated declarations that he wishes to torture the reader, but that's also a predictor of every character's death. I don't take Jim too seriously on these declarations because everything could be so much worse for all the characters constantly. I've seen those stories. I don't really like them, and I don't see the point. There is enough of that in real life everyday.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 16, 2020, 04:17:21 AM
Quote
The mentor gives the hero what he needs to answer the call after refusing it. The mentor pushes the hero into accepting the call. Sometimes this is by literally giving them what they need to succeed such as Lea giving Harry the ruby in Changes. Sometimes it's something the hero already has like grit or an object.

I'd like to point out that Eb gave Harry a code of ethics to live by when he had none.  Without those, he would have lost his head a long time ago.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 04:54:31 AM
I'd like to point out that Eb gave Harry a code of ethics to live by when he had none.  Without those, he would have lost his head a long time ago.
I'd like to point out that I addressed that.
What Eb has taught Harry could often be considered the mentor, but it wouldn't actually be Eb because the hero's journey is a structure.
...
I read once that the mentor in most westerns was the main character's grit or some other character trait.
Eb's code isn't Eb. It's a part of Harry's character by the time we meet him. Harry's time with Eb is part of Harry's "Ordinary World."

As to your second point, it could also be argued that without Eb's specific code, Harry would have been living a much easier life, and not endangering himself at all. Harry's code is part of the reason he doesn't fit into the hero's journey. He only refuses the call when it's a, in his opinion, bad guy who makes the call to adventure. If he didn't have that ethos, he wouldn't be risking his life left and right. He also wouldn't be putting himself in situations that lead to temptation.

If we are to cram Harry into the hero's journey, then his "Refusal of the Call" and "Meeting the Mentor" usually all happen in his head in a paragraph or two.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 16, 2020, 02:00:52 PM
Quote
As to your second point, it could also be argued that without Eb's specific code, Harry would have been living a much easier life, and not endangering himself at all. Harry's code is part of the reason he doesn't fit into the hero's journey. He only refuses the call when it's a, in his opinion, bad guy who makes the call to adventure. If he didn't have that ethos, he wouldn't be risking his life left and right. He also wouldn't be putting himself in situations that lead to temptation.

Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point.  Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier, example being Yoda's teaching about the Force to Luke, Obi-Wan's also, their object wasn't to make life easier for Luke they were teaching him how to do it without going to the darkside.

Quote
Eb's code isn't Eb. It's a part of Harry's character by the time we meet him. Harry's time with Eb is part of Harry's "Ordinary World."

It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Avernite on February 16, 2020, 02:17:47 PM
Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point.  Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier, example being Yoda's teaching about the Force to Luke, Obi-Wan's also, their object wasn't to make life easier for Luke they were teaching him how to do it without going to the darkside.

It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
This all just makes Eb 'a' mentor. Someone who taught Harry things. But that doesn't make him THE mentor of a hero's journey who needs to die (or be disabled) to progress the story.

Harry has, if anything, already been promoted past Eb; The Warden and The Winterknight both don't answer to the Senior Council officially. Rashid may be considered a clearer sort of authority over Harry, as the Gatekeeper role is somewhat ahead of the Knight in Faery meaning (even if it's not so clear in Winter) and of course he's still the boss of Harry-the-Wizard.
But Eb? The last time Eb gave Harry advice/an order, Harry flaunted it and blew up the Red Court. And signed up with Winter instead.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 07:19:19 PM
Whether or not without Eb's code Harry would be living an easier life is beside the point.  Mentors
teach a way to live one's life or how to do something specific, the object of the mentoring isn't to make life easier.
Your point was that Eb's code has kept Harry alive. I'm saying that Eb's code has done more to endanger him than to keep him alive. So that Harry's life would be easier without Eb's code is entirely the point.

It doesn't matter, were it not for Eb's mentoring, Harry wouldn't be the character we know.
It does matter as to the point you are arguing with. That point is whether or not Eb is the Mentor in a hero's journey structural way. If he isn't, the argument that the Mentor must die, Eb is the mentor, so Eb must die doesn't hold water. And that's putting aside that the premise "the Mentor must die" is false.

This all just makes Eb 'a' mentor. Someone who taught Harry things. But that doesn't make him THE mentor of a hero's journey.
Exactly.
THE mentor of a hero's journey who needs to die (or be disabled) to progress the story.
For the record, since my original point is that a hero's journey analysis of DF doesn't in any way point to Eb dying, the mentor dying (or being disabled) isn't part of the hero's journey.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 16, 2020, 07:51:32 PM
Quote
It does matter as to the point you are arguing with. That point is whether or not Eb is the Mentor in a hero's journey structural way. If he isn't, the argument that the Mentor must die, Eb is the mentor, so Eb must die doesn't hold water. And that's putting aside that the premise "the Mentor must die" is false.
Huh?   You seem to be contradicting yourself..  Harry has had many mentors, several are still alive, Eb and I believe Rashid as well..  A couple are dead,  Justin  and I think you can count Shiro in as a mentor as well though briefly, but his impact was great.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 16, 2020, 10:40:38 PM
Merriam Webster's mentor and the hero's journey's mentor are two completely different things. Mentor is generally defined as "an experienced and trusted person who gives another person advice and help, esp. related to work or school, over a period of time." When speaking in the context of the hero's journey, the mentor refers to whatever the hero needs to change his mind after he has refused the call to adventure and go forth and succeed. In this context, the mentor can be a character trait, an object, a person, or literally anything else.

People often assume that the mentor in this context is a person who has to die so the hero can't rely on the person for help and must go forth on his adventure. This is a misunderstanding of both the hero's journey and what is meant by the mentor. For example, in Star Wars Luke refuses the call by telling Obi-Wan that he can't leave the farm. The Empire murders his family. Luke then decides to take up the call to adventure. Here the murder of Luke's family is the mentor, not Obi-Wan.

Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.

Because Eb isn't a mentor and the mentor doesn't have to die, the argument that (premise 1): Eb is the mentor, (premise 2): the mentor has to die, so (conclusion): Eb will die, is wrong. Both premises are false. The conclusion cannot be reached because of the premises. The conclusion may be true for completely different reasons, but not because of the mentor/hero's journey argument.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 18, 2020, 02:21:52 PM
Quote
Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.

 That isn't exactly true..  In Turn Coat after Harry is released from the infirmary Eb walks with or escorts Harry back to Chicago from Scotland.  It is Eb that prods Harry, it is Eb who hints at the organization of the Grey Council, this is when Harry seems to be pulling back because he thinks he is alone. 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 18, 2020, 04:52:48 PM
I'd say that, and just about everything in the concluding chapter, would be the "Return with the Elixir" stage of the hero's journey.

Though thinking about Eb as a mentor, he would probably qualify in Proven Guilty when he convinces Harry to figure out what's going on in the Faerie Courts.

But this doesn't really help the argument that as a mentor, Eb has to die because many characters act as a mentor at some point. I'm sure we could fit Michael, Lea, Thomas, Maggie (Sr.), Malcolm, Rashid, Eb, Bob, Odin/Vadderung/Kringle, and Mab in there. We can probably make decent arguments for Uriel, Murphy, Butters, Murphy's dad, Mort, Sir Stuart, Carmichael, Billy, Luccio, Molly, and probably some others I haven't thought of. I don't think they are all going to die just so Harry's "hero's journey" can progress.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Avernite on February 18, 2020, 05:42:56 PM
Merriam Webster's mentor and the hero's journey's mentor are two completely different things. Mentor is generally defined as "an experienced and trusted person who gives another person advice and help, esp. related to work or school, over a period of time." When speaking in the context of the hero's journey, the mentor refers to whatever the hero needs to change his mind after he has refused the call to adventure and go forth and succeed. In this context, the mentor can be a character trait, an object, a person, or literally anything else.

People often assume that the mentor in this context is a person who has to die so the hero can't rely on the person for help and must go forth on his adventure. This is a misunderstanding of both the hero's journey and what is meant by the mentor. For example, in Star Wars Luke refuses the call by telling Obi-Wan that he can't leave the farm. The Empire murders his family. Luke then decides to take up the call to adventure. Here the murder of Luke's family is the mentor, not Obi-Wan.

Many on the forum argue that Eb is Harry's mentor, so he must die in keeping with the structure of the hero's journey. This is wrong for two reasons. First Eb isn't a mentor in the hero's journey sense. Eb has never shown up to Harry and caused Harry to take up the call to adventure after Harry has refused it. This means that Eb is not Harry's mentor in the hero's journey sense. Second, the death of the mentor isn't a step in the hero's journey. Let's go back to Star Wars. What would the death of the mentor even mean? That Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen come back to life? That's preposterous.

Because Eb isn't a mentor and the mentor doesn't have to die, the argument that (premise 1): Eb is the mentor, (premise 2): the mentor has to die, so (conclusion): Eb will die, is wrong. Both premises are false. The conclusion cannot be reached because of the premises. The conclusion may be true for completely different reasons, but not because of the mentor/hero's journey argument.

I looked it up, and your variant of the Mentor is not the same as the wikipedia (I know) page makes of it.

Quote
Once the hero has committed to the quest, consciously or unconsciously, his guide and magical helper appears or becomes known. More often than not, this supernatural mentor will present the hero with one or more talismans or artifacts that will aid him later in his quest. Meeting the person that can help them in their journey.

Some further storytelling goes on to explain the Mentor represents the forces of 'destiny' in the positive sense; not only is the hero supposed to save the world, the world (through the mentor) also helps the hero along. And in that sense, the mentor MUST be removed from the story, because if evil is directly up against destiny, what use is there for a separate hero? The mentor can only support the hero, and this can be because the mentor is not quite that special, or dies, or is crippled... or just vanishes (e.g. Gandalf in the Hobbit).

In that sense, of how is Harry's destiny supporting him yet not getting in the way of him being the hero of the story... Bob actually seems a much more logical mentor.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 18, 2020, 06:10:06 PM


Given the above, Shiro would be a main mentor, he is the one who made Harry custodian of his Holy Sword as he was dying.  Being custodian of the Swords has been a major factor in Harry's life.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 19, 2020, 02:34:37 AM
From the wikipedia article:
Quote
Scholars have questioned the validity or usefulness of the monomyth category. ...
Others have found the categories Campbell works with so vague as to be meaningless...
In a similar vein, American philosopher John Shelton Lawrence and American religious scholar Robert Jewett have discussed an "American Monomyth" ... . They present this as an American reaction to the Campbellian monomyth. The "American Monomyth" storyline is: A community in a harmonious paradise is threatened by evil; normal institutions fail to contend with this threat; a selfless superhero emerges to renounce temptations and carry out the redemptive task; aided by fate, his decisive victory restores the community to its paradisiacal condition; the superhero then recedes into obscurity.
I agree with the first two sentences and think that the second part sounds more like what's going on in the Dresden Files than the hero's journey, but, not having looked into it, I imagine it is also a formula that an author can easily diverge from.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on February 20, 2020, 09:14:58 AM
I almost wish I had never mentioned the Hero's Journey; fascinating as the discussion following that has been, because that discussion sidesteps a very real reason why many readers could expect Ebenezer to be killed of a some point in the story. 

Ever since Summer Knight; when we were first were first introduced to Eb, Harry's grandfather has acted as Harry's ally and protector on the White Council.  The person who could keep the Merlin from ramming a death sentence down Harry's throat.  The person who would warn Harry that the Merlin would have a back-up plan and come at Harry sideways.  In Death Masks, Eb told Harry the White Council would prevent the duel between Ortega and Harry from taking place.  Does anyone doubt Eb was the person who pushed the White Council to take that stance?  It was Ebenezer, and Eb's allies on the Senior Council, that Harry was counting on to save Molly from a death sentence in Proven Guilty.

Now Jim has stated more than once, that now Harry is the Winter Knight, no one on the White Council wants to risk pissing off Mab by killing her mortal champion.  So Harry doesn't need Eb's pull on the Council as an insurance policy any longer.  However, by itself this doesn't make Ebenezer superfluous for the rest of Harry's story, but it does make Eb vulnerable; or to put it another way, it removes Eb's plot armor.  I'm not predicting that Ebenezer will die in Peace Talks.  Even if Jim has decided that he will kill off Eb at some point, it doesn't have to be done in the near term.  I was thinking that one possibility is that at some point Harry gets out of being the Winter Knight.  It's just a gut feeling, but I don't see Harry remaining the Winter Knight for eight more novels.  (Five, including PT to get to twenty case novels, followed by a big trilogy.)  So Harry survives leaving his Winter Knight gig, but he still has Ebenzer as an ally on the Senior Council.  Then suddenly something bad happens and Harry no longer has Ebenezer as an insurance policy.  Remember in Turn Coat the Gatekeeper mentioned something about Harry's time to take a stand against the Council was not yet at hand?  I figure the best time for this to take place is when Ebenezer is no longer around.  This way there's no one in higher authority who can intervene in Harry's behalf.  It would ratchet up the tension by making the situation an all or nothing scenario.

Than again, as I stated in my earlier post, Ebenezer doesn't die, but something happens that diminishes him in some way.  It would have to have the same effect of isolating Harry without killing the old man off.       

 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 20, 2020, 02:52:38 PM
Quote

Than again, as I stated in my earlier post, Ebenezer doesn't die, but something happens that diminishes him in some way.  It would have to have the same effect of isolating Harry without killing the old man off.       

If Harry gets out of the Winter Knight's gig I can see him becoming the Blackstaff, something that would go against his grain even more than being Winter Knight.  However I don't see him getting out of it, I think it is too important in the fight ahead, now the role itself may change but since both Courts are going to be in the fight, I see Harry remaining Knight.  There is a reason why Molly is now Winter Lady, perfect that Harry is her Knight for the fight.

Even though we didn't meet him until Summer Knight, Eb's presence was felt when Harry spoke of his faith in magic and the ethics of it.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: noblehunter on February 20, 2020, 04:40:40 PM
I'm betting Eb dies at or near the beginning of the BAT. Taking him out would seriously weaken the White Council and be a good indication things are about to get much worse. If Jim really wants to drive home that the end of all things is just around the corner, both Eb and the Merlin will go down at the same time.

Though I'll hedge my bets with Eb going down in Peace Talks just because.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Maz on February 20, 2020, 05:49:30 PM
Just thinking...
What if Harry does get out of the Winter Knight gig...
by someone taking out the Winter Court.
Not Mab.  The whole thing.  Including Molly and his Mantle.

I mean if the Outsiders want to win they have to do it.  What if they do it a couple books early and you deprive reality of Mab and any successor.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on February 20, 2020, 06:34:46 PM
Just thinking...
What if Harry does get out of the Winter Knight gig...
by someone taking out the Winter Court.
Not Mab.  The whole thing.  Including Molly and his Mantle.

I mean if the Outsiders want to win they have to do it.  What if they do it a couple books early and you deprive reality of Mab and any successor.
The outsiders win. There is a reason for Molly to faithfully do her duty. If it was just for Mab’s pleasure she would have behaved quite differently.

She is in many respects totally different from Maeve.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 21, 2020, 04:54:24 AM
If Jim really wants to drive home that the end of all things is just around the corner, both Eb and the Merlin will go down at the same time.
Throw in Rashid and it would really drive that point home.

To Kurtin's point about Eb being Harry's protector, I think Rashid has done more. Eb gets three out seven votes in Summer Knight to not turn Harry over. Rashid gets the entire Senior Council to give Harry a trial instead of turning him over. The next time we actually see the Senior Council act, it is again Rashid who prevents the Merlin from going after Harry. Michael comes through with the Council's children and brings in the votes to save Molly because Rashid delayed.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 21, 2020, 06:07:52 AM
Throw in Rashid and it would really drive that point home.

To Kurtin's point about Eb being Harry's protector, I think Rashid has done more. Eb gets three out seven votes in Summer Knight to not turn Harry over. Rashid gets the entire Senior Council to give Harry a trial instead of turning him over. The next time we actually see the Senior Council act, it is again Rashid who prevents the Merlin from going after Harry. Michael comes through with the Council's children and brings in the votes to save Molly because Rashid delayed.

I agree about Rashid, however he does have his own agenda, remember in Summer Knight he was more like doing his own testing than protecting Harry from the Council.  He told Harry he would have killed him, himself if Harry had slipped up.  I think you are thinking of Proven Guilty,  I don't believe Eb was at the trial itself for Molly, he came in later at the same time as Michael, however it was Rashid that delayed things that kept Molly alive and supported Harry.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: noblehunter on February 21, 2020, 05:13:40 PM
Throw in Rashid and it would really drive that point home.

To Kurtin's point about Eb being Harry's protector, I think Rashid has done more. Eb gets three out seven votes in Summer Knight to not turn Harry over. Rashid gets the entire Senior Council to give Harry a trial instead of turning him over. The next time we actually see the Senior Council act, it is again Rashid who prevents the Merlin from going after Harry. Michael comes through with the Council's children and brings in the votes to save Molly because Rashid delayed.

I know it's because of dramatic reasons but the Council seems to have a severe problem with succession planning. Eb might be the easiest to replace (from a booms point of view) since any top-level talent could wield the Blackstaff, but Merlin and Gatekeeper don't seem to be so Macguffin enabled. The implication is that the strengths of the other Senior Council members don't overlap much, so there'd be a major capability loss if either of them got hit by a bus.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 21, 2020, 05:43:24 PM
I know it's because of dramatic reasons but the Council seems to have a severe problem with succession planning. Eb might be the easiest to replace (from a booms point of view) since any top-level talent could wield the Blackstaff, but Merlin and Gatekeeper don't seem to be so Macguffin enabled. The implication is that the strengths of the other Senior Council members don't overlap much, so there'd be a major capability loss if either of them got hit by a bus.

  Talent wise, yes, Eb would be easy to replace as Blackstaff, many wizards on the Senior Council are as talented if not more than Eb and also equal or more in power.  The factor not so easy to replace is trust and integrity,  those who know what he is, trusts that he will not abuse his power.  This is the guy that can kill anyone and use all kinds of black magic doing it if he wanted without suffering any stain or blow back,  but he won't..  Eb knows he has the power to do it, but he also knows when he should and shouldn't do it.. That kind of restraint isn't so easy to replace.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on February 21, 2020, 07:15:22 PM
If Harry gets out of the Winter Knight's gig I can see him becoming the Blackstaff, something that would go against his grain even more than being Winter Knight ...

I expect the WK-Mantle and the Blackstaff to play together in all sorts of "interesting" new ways for poor Mr. Dresden.

I expect Jim to dig that knife in and  t-w-i-s-t  it.

I expect Eb to fall in battle (probably against Outsiders), at/near the end of one of the novels, and Harry to pick up the Blackstaff right there, out of necessity, to wield it and end the battle.  But hey -- maybe that microfiction-tease'd fight with the Cornerhound is where Eb falls?  (Eb is a heavier hitter than Harry is; MUCH heavier.  I can't see Harry handling something that overpowers Ebenezer... except Outsiders.)

... However I don't see him getting out of it, I think it is too important in the fight ahead ...

Agreed.  I'm not clear if Mab's strategic goals for Harry involve her wielding a Starborn Wizard Knight against the Outsiders... or if she is finding a way to give the Winter Knight's mantle to a Starborn Wizard, for him to wield (more or less independent of her orders) against the Outsiders.

Possibly she sees both outcomes as acceptable.

What I think we will see is Harry will learn how to "take off" the Mantle at will; it's still there, still his; but he won't be the Mantle's, and he will have other things too.  Vadderung, after all, isn't ALWAYS Kringle (and very well may have another Mantle -- or several -- he sometimes wears, as well).

From a Doylist POV, for Jim's writing, I think we're seeing a bunch of anti-Outsider stuff getting added, bit by bit, into Harry's repertoire.  Soulfire is a bit of that origin-of-the-universe Creation energy; what better tool against anti-Creation Outsiders?  Winter powers... and Winter is the primary anti-Outsider combat force.  Warden of Demonreach.  Willpower (over and over again, Harry's willpower keeps getting more and more severely tested... and strengthened), which seems to be a key element in breaking Outsider's "psychic whammy."

Come the BAT, I expect all those tools will be available to Harry.  (I do include, BTW, Hellfire!  Harry doesn't much care for it, or use it; but I think he still has access to it, and WILL use it in the BAT).
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Dina on February 22, 2020, 08:00:14 AM
Personally, I believe that Harry will be the WK until the BAT but he will finished it from that job. I always believe Mab will order Harry to kill her (perhaps because she realizes she is going to be infected or something). That act will release Harry of his obligations to winter, as Mab promised never to order Harry to hurt someone he loves and it will become obvious that Harry loves her (not in a romantic way).

About Eb, given the short Christmas story I suspect we will lose him in PT. I am also worried about Rashid.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 22, 2020, 11:53:34 AM
Personally, I believe that Harry will be the WK until the BAT but he will finished it from that job. I always believe Mab will order Harry to kill her (perhaps because she realizes she is going to be infected or something). That act will release Harry of his obligations to winter, as Mab promised never to order Harry to hurt someone he loves and it will become obvious that Harry loves her (not in a romantic way).

About Eb, given the short Christmas story I suspect we will lose him in PT. I am also worried about Rashid.

I like that idea! ;D
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: didymos on February 23, 2020, 05:47:38 AM
Something I think has been overlooked:
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(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on February 23, 2020, 01:52:01 PM
Something I think has been overlooked:
(click to show/hide)
Just a sign that it is really a big bad baddie. Compare with the influence demonreach emits and Harry was totally unaware off until Michael told him in skin game.

Also compare with what happened when the red courts curse went of in changes as told in aftermath. Bad dreams. It can mean really big bad magic.

Harry has become more sensitive to it or it is really, really bad.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Snark Knight on February 23, 2020, 04:17:33 PM
Come the BAT, I expect all those tools will be available to Harry.  (I do include, BTW, Hellfire!  Harry doesn't much care for it, or use it; but I think he still has access to it, and WILL use it in the BAT).

He pretty conclusively doesn't have access to it via Lash anymore. If she faked her own destruction and were still hiding in his head, her actions wouldn't have been a sacrificial act of love sufficient to create Bonnie.

Are you thinking he could realign Uriel's gift of soulfire to produce hellfire again on his own? Even if that were possible, it seems like the kind of thing that would pretty much require seriously darkening his own soul to accomplish.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on February 24, 2020, 06:16:43 PM
He pretty conclusively doesn't have access to it via Lash anymore...
It just takes some knowledge, I think.  Most of Lash "went away" in the Raith Deeps, but everything that was "Lash" existed inside Harry's mind... was a part of Harry; Harry was (and presumably still IS, if he knows how) capable of it.

We know there were a few traces of Lash left (other than Bonea); a bit of music, etc.

Access to Hellfire could be one of those things Lash "arranged" to leave in Harry's mind.

(Alternatively, he could probably figure it out for himself, since (a) he is a wizard, & (b) he's used it before.)

Harry just doesn't use it because he doesn't like it. 
 
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 24, 2020, 08:20:14 PM


   I don't think Harry needs Hell-fire anymore, between soul power, the Winter Knight mantle, and his own considerable KABOOM talents I think he is set.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Arjan on February 24, 2020, 09:50:12 PM
I believe there was a woj something like angelic beings have both but what they use decides who they are. I think Harry can use hellfire but that would be a very negative choice, a choice for hell. Harry would fall.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: g33k on February 24, 2020, 09:55:21 PM
I don't think Harry needs Hell-fire anymore, between soul power, the Winter Knight mantle, and his own considerable KABOOM talents I think he is set.

In Cold Days, Harry launched a Soulfire/Winter strike on HWWBh, who blocked almost the whole thing; and the one strike drained a LOT of Harry's power.

Come the BAT, he is going to need all the raw power he can get.

Hellfire seems to be its own power-source (almost like a portable Ley-Line), so it isn't as "draining" as Soulfire (and regular magic) is.

I'm wondering if Harry might be able to take the raw chaotic destructive power of Hellfire, and combine it with the reality/creation enhancing power of Soulfire.  I don't expect would be exactly easy to do (I think it'd scandalize poor Uriel).  But I don't think it's actually impossible (within the Dresdenverse), even though I think Bob described them as "opposites."

Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: didymos on February 24, 2020, 11:01:58 PM
WOJ on hellfire/soulfire (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-angels-demons-fallen-and-knights-of-the-cross/):

Quote
#259 “Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are. (Emphasis added)
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 24, 2020, 11:29:58 PM
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In Cold Days, Harry launched a Soulfire/Winter strike on HWWBh, who blocked almost the whole thing; and the one strike drained a LOT of Harry's power.

Yeah, but in Cold Days Harry was still working out how Soulfire and the Winter Mantle work... He still was kind of intimidated by both and afraid of becoming a monster.   By the end though some of it had gotten through,  from what Kringle told him, Harry is a lot more powerful than he knows.  All I am saying Harry's got weapons, he just doesn't quite have the skill set or confidence to deploy them, so while at that point he may drain his resources fighting HWWB, but by the BAT I bet that won't happen, and he won't need Hell Fire to do it either.  Let's not forget the stash of weapons he got from the vault in Skin Game, Hades said only those clever enough to take them would be able to used them if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Bad Alias on February 25, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
What I think we will see is Harry will learn how to "take off" the Mantle at will; it's still there, still his; but he won't be the Mantle's, and he will have other things too.  Vadderung, after all, isn't ALWAYS Kringle (and very well may have another Mantle -- or several -- he sometimes wears, as well).
My bet is either Harry gets out of it or this. I'm leaning towards this. I think that was the whole point of the scene. I know Jim has said that Harry's deal to become the Winter Knight overrode his "three favors" deal, but that's not what happened in the books. I don't know if Jim is lying to throw us off or misremembering because it's not important to him since he doesn't plan on Harry getting out of the Mantle that way.

I agree about Rashid, however he does have his own agenda, remember in Summer Knight he was more like doing his own testing than protecting Harry from the Council.  He told Harry he would have killed him, himself if Harry had slipped up.  I think you are thinking of Proven Guilty,  I don't believe Eb was at the trial itself for Molly, he came in later at the same time as Michael, however it was Rashid that delayed things that kept Molly alive and supported Harry.
I meant Summer Knight in the sentence I said Summer Knight, and I meant Proven Guilty in the next sentence. Rashid does indeed have his own agenda, but he has constantly acted in ways that help Harry.

It just takes some knowledge, I think.  Most of Lash "went away" in the Raith Deeps, but everything that was "Lash" existed inside Harry's mind... was a part of Harry; Harry was (and presumably still IS, if he knows how) capable of it.
While I don't agree, I do think this is highly plausible.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: noblehunter on February 25, 2020, 04:59:26 PM
Yeah, but in Cold Days Harry was still working out how Soulfire and the Winter Mantle work... He still was kind of intimidated by both and afraid of becoming a monster.   By the end though some of it had gotten through,  from what Kringle told him, Harry is a lot more powerful than he knows.  All I am saying Harry's got weapons, he just doesn't quite have the skill set or confidence to deploy them, so while at that point he may drain his resources fighting HWWB, but by the BAT I bet that won't happen, and he won't need Hell Fire to do it either.  Let's not forget the stash of weapons he got from the vault in Skin Game, Hades said only those clever enough to take them would be able to used them if I remember correctly.

I think this is well supported by the books being very consistent that how you use power greatly effects the efficiency of it. Wizards who are more powerful than Harry almost always show it by using less power to get a stronger effect. Where Harry would use the magical equivalent of a sledgehammer, Luccio or Morgan use a stiletto because they're simply better at using magic than Harry.

A good chunk of Harry's leveling up has been because he had to revisit the basics to teach Molly and to find ways to do things with a much smaller power budget. He's probably got all the raw power he needs for the BAT, he just needs to learn how to use it for maximum advantage.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: morriswalters on February 25, 2020, 06:31:46 PM
I meant Summer Knight in the sentence I said Summer Knight, and I meant Proven Guilty in the next sentence. Rashid does indeed have his own agenda, but he has constantly acted in ways that help Harry.
It may be more useful for your theorizing if you consider what the Gatekeeper and others are doing is moving Harry to a specific place and time.  And that if he moves in the wrong direction they are prepared to kill him. Also in terms of Mentors, one not mentioned in the text of PG but who is there anyway. Uriel.  First then in PG, then Small Favor, again in Changes, Ghost Story and finally in SG.
Title: Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
Post by: Mira on February 25, 2020, 06:58:49 PM
It may be more useful for your theorizing if you consider what the Gatekeeper and others are doing is moving Harry to a specific place and time.  And that if he moves in the wrong direction they are prepared to kill him. Also in terms of Mentors, one not mentioned in the text of PG but who is there anyway. Uriel.  First then in PG, then Small Favor, again in Changes, Ghost Story and finally in SG.

Yup, the Gatekeeper said as much in Summer Knight, he had his own little test for Harry that had nothing to do with the politics of the Senior Council, and in Turn Coat I believe he would have burned him down when he scanned him on the dock if he thought something was amiss.. Also in Proven Guilty when he helped to delay the Merlin from proxy voting for almost the whole Senior Council, I believe as well as saving both Molly and Harry he was also pushing them both towards the Winter Court.