The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace talks excerpt indications
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 19, 2020, 02:01:26 AM --- He wanted her to calm down and think... It is like telling someone going into danger that everything is going to be okay when both of you know damn well it won't be. Now you can call that lying if you want to, but it is not done out of malice like you are implying.
--- End quote ---
I now understand your position and can make sense of "Harry's not lying." I don't agree with it because I don't think he was trying to calm her down, but his precise motivation in that line has to be interpreted by the reader.
--- Quote from: Arjan on April 19, 2020, 02:34:19 AM ---Not at that moment but apparently he did not feel guilty about it when he took that decision either. And there was the decision to take his sensitive young pupil to that place.
--- End quote ---
I'd say he felt guilty about both at the time, so I don't see how it's so apparent. He felt "like an utter bastard for asking" Molly to do it. I can't think of a quote precise enough to easily search, but I'm pretty sure he felt guilty for bringing all his friends with him, Molly most specifically, at the time.
--- Quote from: Arjan on April 19, 2020, 02:34:19 AM ---Concentrating on that lie is acting like Harry.
--- End quote ---
The only reason I was focusing on the lie is that Mira disputes that it was a lie. Lying is wrong, but it's wrong like killing people is wrong. Sometimes, it's actually the right thing to do because we live in an imperfect world. (Obviously killing is on a very different end of the moral gravity spectrum).
--- Quote from: Mira on April 19, 2020, 02:49:31 PM ---While it is shocking that both Harry and Susan's attitude was to let the world burn
--- End quote ---
I don't find it surprising, much less shocking.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I'd say he felt guilty about both at the time, so I don't see how it's so apparent. He felt "like an utter bastard for asking" Molly to do it. I can't think of a quote precise enough to easily search, but I'm pretty sure he felt guilty for bringing all his friends with him, Molly most specifically, at the time.
--- End quote ---
He did feel guilty, he always has, that is why he tries to keep so much from his friends, but they volunteer anyway. Actually I believe he tried to talk Molly out of
coming with them, she insisted. Again, she was young, but not a child by any means and under no illusions that it would be a cake walk.
--- Quote ---The only reason I was focusing on the lie is that Mira disputes that it was a lie. Lying is wrong, but it's wrong like killing people is wrong. Sometimes, it's actually the right thing to do because we live in an imperfect world. (Obviously killing is on a very different end of the moral gravity spectrum).
--- End quote ---
Yes, it is an imperfect world, and like what Mab says about death, there is a spectrum to it, not black and white. What I objected to is the idea and perhaps I misunderstood you, that because Harry had told Susan that the knife wouldn't hurt her to get her to attack, he murdered her. I'm saying it isn't that simple, nor how it went down. Go back to when they started their journey it was Lea that made a show about Susan's cloak and skin protecting her, that was the original lie, but then the Fae supposedly cannot lie. Harry should have objected then, and he did actually, by saying he'd rather wear Kevlar, then Lea shot a bullet at Susan and it bounced off. That complicates things, Harry was repeating basically what Lea had said and demonstrated, though he didn't believe it himself, outright lie or something he couldn't prove? Why did he say it? My belief is he was trying to calm her so she'd think, for that brief time if she believed what Lea had said she'd be less afraid.. When she calmed down, thought back, then she could ask the questions of Martin that needed to be asked, that is when the truth came out. That is when she decided to attack, not the Red King who had the knife and was headed for the alter to cut their daughter's throat, but Martin. Once Susan attacked Martin and began to turn, that is when it all hit the fan. Actually that had been Martin's plan all along, sacrifice himself and Susan so that Harry could bring the Red Court down.. So who was the real manipulator here? It wasn't about Susan being afraid or not that the knife could hurt her, she never attacked the one who had it and was actually moving towards their daughter in that moment to cut her throat. So nasty black lie told deliberately to get Susan to attack ergo getting her murdered? Not exactly.
If Harry had told Susan that Lea was wrong about a steel knife not hurting her, would that have changed things for the better? If he had said nothing about the knife, would it have been a lie by omission? Nano seconds count, Harry needed Susan's brain to focus to save them all.. If it was a lie it was the whitest of lies told for the best of reasons.. Yes, even when it comes to morality, there is a spectrum to it, it isn't always black and white.
Arjan:
Morality becomes difficult when you make it difficult. Ultimately it is about loyalties. Harry's loyalties are to his daughter, Susan (and so primarily to his daughter again) the rest of his friends that came with him, and humanity in general.
So Harry had to choose how to stay loyal to these people and that dictated the choices he made. And at that point he only had one choice left. The vampires forced that choice upon him in a way.
morriswalters:
If you assume that Harry knows right from wrong then the text is explicit. He lied to her and he manipulated her, knowing it when he did it.
--- Quote ---One day I hope God will forgive me for giving birth to the idea that came next.
Because I never will.
I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.
--- End quote ---
There isn't really anything to say about that. It achieved the goal that Harry had stated, free his daughter at any cost. Would Susan have went along with it? Probably as written. But in the book Harry needed her in a beserker rage. Because she had already been subdued. With a knife against her throat the only way out was to be prepared to get your throat cut or to be so enraged that you wouldn't think about it.
The prevailing notion here seems to be that good people can't do bad things. Sure they can. And sometimes they do them for noble reasons. But you can't make those decisions other than what they are. And I wouldn't trust a man that could do that and not feel guilt and remorse.
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 20, 2020, 03:48:35 PM ---If you assume that Harry knows right from wrong then the text is explicit. He lied to her and he manipulated her, knowing it when he did it.There isn't really anything to say about that. It achieved the goal that Harry had stated, free his daughter at any cost. Would Susan have went along with it? Probably as written. But in the book Harry needed her in a beserker rage. Because she had already been subdued. With a knife against her throat the only way out was to be prepared to get your throat cut or to be so enraged that you wouldn't think about it.
The prevailing notion here seems to be that good people can't do bad things. Sure they can. And sometimes they do them for noble reasons. But you can't make those decisions other than what they are. And I wouldn't trust a man that could do that and not feel guilt and remorse.
--- End quote ---
Again, Harry is putting way too much upon himself, and in fact isn't very rational. I doubt he liked someone else acting in his stead.. The only one left who could was Susan. He may have thought it was as good as murder to tell her the knife wouldn't hurt her, but she didn't go after the Red King, who had the knife and who was actually going to cut her daughter's throat. She went after Martin..
Back to the question, what would have changed had he said that she wasn't protected? You think she would have done nothing as her daughter's throat was being slit and Harry and Eb dying almost at the same moment? Either way, she wouldn't have remained Susan, it is doubtful that she would have survived.
In Skin Game Harry is a bit more rational about it..
--- Quote ---"That son of a bitch, Martin," I said. "He. . .set her up. Sold out the family that had had Maggie. I think he did it to set me on a collision course with the Red King, maybe hoping to focus the White Council on the war effort a little harder."
--- End quote ---
Then he says further down that Martin provoked Susan by his confession and she lost it.. Harry
states that maybe he could have stopped it, but could he have really? At any rate she killed Martin and began to turn and Harry finished the ritual by killing her, thatis what he feels guilt about.
Michael then points out that Susan allowed Harry to sacrifice her, that Harry is only human..
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