The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace talks excerpt indications
morriswalters:
If you want to know what it would have changed had he not lied to her you would need to ask Jim. He wrote it the way he wrote it. Jim makes a point of the lie, in my mind that means he wants you to see it as a morally ambiguous act. YMMV. Certainly it's for the greater good, if you aren't a vampire. And Susan probably would have been good with it. But since he didn't ask there is no way to know.
Notably in the text he asks her as she changes, but she isn't human by that point else the ritual wouldn't have worked. It seems kinda pointless. Had she wanted to be a vampire she would have already been one. And she had been working against them since she was bitten. I've never really understood why Jim plotted it this way. I suppose he wanted Harry to have a child, for whatever reason.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 20, 2020, 08:52:31 PM ---If you want to know what it would have changed had he not lied to her you would need to ask Jim. He wrote it the way he wrote it. Jim makes a point of the lie, in my mind that means he wants you to see it as a morally ambiguous act. YMMV. Certainly it's for the greater good, if you aren't a vampire. And Susan probably would have been good with it. But since he didn't ask there is no way to know.
Notably in the text he asks her as she changes, but she isn't human by that point else the ritual wouldn't have worked. It seems kinda pointless. Had she wanted to be a vampire she would have already been one. And she had been working against them since she was bitten. I've never really understood why Jim plotted it this way. I suppose he wanted Harry to have a child, for whatever reason.
--- End quote ---
Jim wants to wreck our emotions and your child as a ritual sacrifice to kill you calls up a lot of strong emotions.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on April 20, 2020, 09:12:28 PM ---Jim wants to wreck our emotions and your child as a ritual sacrifice to kill you calls up a lot of strong emotions.
--- End quote ---
Indeed it does, and a hell of a lot of stuff was also going on in that moment. As Michael says in
Skin Game, nobody is perfect, Harry is human, not God. He and everyone else was being manipulated by Martin to wipe out the vamps, it was years in the making going back to Death Masks
when he encouraged Susan to go with a wounded Harry back to his place. Martin knew their history, he also knew what the smell of blood would do to Susan, he got the outcome he wanted.
--- Quote ---Notably in the text he asks her as she changes, but she isn't human by that point else the ritual wouldn't have worked. It seems kinda pointless. Had she wanted to be a vampire she would have already been one. And she had been working against them since she was bitten. I've never really understood why Jim plotted it this way. I suppose he wanted Harry to have a child, for whatever reason.
--- End quote ---
It isn't about what she wanted, no, she didn't want to be a vampire. Martin knew that, that is why he plotted it they way he did. He most likely encouraged Susan to keep the child in the area, he plotted with the Red King to murder the innocent family she stayed with and kidnap the child. He left Harry with no further options than to get Susan to ask him some critical questions, which he was more than happy to answer knowing when she got the answers she'd lose it and rip his throat out. Killing him and turning her, then he knew full well what Harry would have to do, and that Susan in her last human breath would agree, setting off the chain reaction..
AClone:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 21, 2020, 03:58:36 AM --- He most likely encouraged Susan to keep the child in the area, he plotted with the Red King to murder the innocent family she stayed with and kidnap the child.
--- End quote ---
I find myself curious where this steady assumption of Susan keeping Maggie "in the area" has arisen from. The text specifically says that Maggie was with placed with a family "away from the fighting". The only indication of where that family may have actually been would be assumptions based on their surname.
Which reminds me of how, in one book signing, someone put their foot in it by suggesting that Injun Joe might have been a suspect as being responsible for the naagloshi--because, after all, he's a Native American.
Jim...well, I'll politely say that he refuted that one emphatically. Canon said long ago that Injun Joe was an Illinois medicine man, and Jim pointed out just how far removed the tribes of the Southwest are from those of the Midwest. Matter of fact, he made a point of making a parallel of just how distant that relationship would be if we were talking in terms of European nations. I believe his reference was something like from Italy to Norway.
Saying that Maggie was "in the area" simply because the family she was with had a Hispanic surname is nothing but more of the same. And it didn't really matter where she was, because even if Maggie was in Alaska, after Martin tells them where she was, the exact same thing would have happened.
I've seen a number of misapprehensions about Susan Rodriguez in this thread. Please pardon me of I get back on topic next post post.
AClone:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 21, 2020, 03:58:36 AM --- He most likely encouraged Susan to keep the child in the area, he plotted with the Red King to murder the innocent family she stayed with and kidnap the child.
--- End quote ---
I find myself curious where this steady assumption of Susan keeping Maggie "in the area" has arisen from. The text specifically says that Maggie was with placed with a family "away from the fighting". The only indication of where that family may have actually been located would be assumptions based solely on their surname.
Which reminds me of how, in one book signing, someone put their foot in it by suggesting that Injun Joe might have been a suspect as being responsible for the naagloshi--because, after all, he's a Native American.
Jim...well, I'll politely say that he refuted that one emphatically. Canon said long ago that Injun Joe was an Illinois medicine man, and Jim pointed out just how far removed the tribes of the Southwest are from those of the Midwest. Matter of fact, he made a point of making a parallel of just how distant that relationship would be if we were talking in terms of European nations. I believe his reference was something like from Italy to Norway.
Saying that Maggie was "in the area" simply because the family she was with had a Hispanic surname is nothing but more of the same. And it didn't really matter where she was, because even if Maggie was in Alaska, after Martin tells them where she was, the exact same thing would have happened.
I've seen a number of misapprehensions about Susan Rodriguez in this thread. Please pardon me of I get back on topic my next post.
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