The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace talks excerpt indications
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on April 18, 2020, 11:13:29 PM ---He literally couldn't remember Molly handling his suicide at this point, so I don't see how that's relevant.
--- End quote ---
Not at that moment but apparently he did not feel guilty about it when he took that decision either. And there was the decision to take his sensitive young pupil to that place. He did not feel guilty about that either.
--- Quote ---You still haven't answered any question I've asked you. Did Harry lie to Susan or not? What was his goal in telling Susan that Martin's machete couldn't hurt her?
So you agree with me that Harry lied to Susan to get her to act? Because that's what I'm saying. Mira is saying he didn't lie to get her to act, and it didn't matter that he lied to her to get her to act because she was going to do it anyway. Stating that he didn't lie and his lie didn't matter seems a little contradictory to me.
--- End quote ---
Everything he said at that moment had that purpose, to make her do what was necessary. I do not know if it even mattered for the eventual outcome but that was the intention. But lying is never a sin in the absolute sense, it is always contextual.
What I was saying is that Harry did what Susan wanted him to do, that by doing so he was loyal to Susan and their child. Not doing his utter best was betraying Susan and their child. That is more important.
Concentrating on that lie is acting like Harry. It is concentrating on the wrong things. His problem was not how he and Susan interacted. His problem was his let the world burn mentality, let Molly burn. A mentality he completely shared with Susan. Ghost Story explained that all.
Ghost Story is not about Uriel trying to explain to Harry that he should not lie.
And yes part of that is Lasciel’s seven words and part of that was memories removed by his own request but these words only tipped a balance at the right moment and were not responsible for all his actions. And certainly not for his let the world burn mentality, that was also before Lasciel spoke.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Concentrating on that lie is acting like Harry. It is concentrating on the wrong things. His problem was not how he and Susan interacted. His problem was his let the world burn mentality, let Molly burn. A mentality he completely shared with Susan. Ghost Story explained that all.
--- End quote ---
While it is shocking that both Harry and Susan's attitude was to let the world burn, one has to also look at it from a parent's perspective. Most parents would declare that the world could burn if it would save their child's life, thank goodness most are never in the position to have to declare that. Also an added factor I think was the total guilt in the extreme both Harry and Susan must have felt.
1] The unprotected sex that led to their child being born. 2] All the reasons their child was in danger in the first place. 3] The repercussions from the decisions that came out of that for the future.
As to Molly, I still think she made her own choices to help Harry, though I doubt that either thought through what those choices would do to them. It will be interesting in future books now that Molly is
in effect both one of Harry's bosses and in that position because she chose to help Harry suicide in the first place, whether or not she confronts him about it. That should tell us a lot, we can point fingers, but it is both Harry and Molly that have to live with the results.
morriswalters:
Mostly parents in the real world are never in the position of Harry and Susan. The can't say let the world burn, nor can they fight back against the forces that can kill them. Ask a parent in a war zone. So conventional ethics don't really apply.
There is a character in Li'l Abner named Joe Btfsplk, this is Harry in a nutshell. A walking jinx. Being near him is like picking your teeth with a lightning rod in a thunderstorm. He plans for an ogre attack but he doesn't carry condoms. He keeps an office and advertises so his enemies know exactly how to buy the building and wire it with explosives. He lives in a basement underneath his geriatric landlady and others, which ends with them getting burned out of their homes. He acts without regarding the effects of his actions on others. Ever.
It makes for great fiction but shitty ethics.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 19, 2020, 02:49:31 PM --- While it is shocking that both Harry and Susan's attitude was to let the world burn, one has to also look at it from a parent's perspective. Most parents would declare that the world could burn if it would save their child's life, thank goodness most are never in the position to have to declare that. Also an added factor I think was the total guilt in the extreme both Harry and Susan must have felt.
1] The unprotected sex that led to their child being born. 2] All the reasons their child was in danger in the first place. 3] The repercussions from the decisions that came out of that for the future.
--- End quote ---
Most parents can at least understand this attitude under the circumstances though I doubt I really understood it before we got ours.
--- Quote ---As to Molly, I still think she made her own choices to help Harry, though I doubt that either thought through what those choices would do to them. It will be interesting in future books now that Molly is
in effect both one of Harry's bosses and in that position because she chose to help Harry suicide in the first place, whether or not she confronts him about it. That should tell us a lot, we can point fingers, but it is both Harry and Molly that have to live with the results.
--- End quote ---
But we are not talking about Molly’s responsibility, we are talking about Harry and his responsibility as Molly’s mentor, the trust Molly’s parents placed in him.
He did not think it through because he did not want to think it through.
Mira:
--- Quote ---But we are not talking about Molly’s responsibility, we are talking about Harry and his responsibility as Molly’s mentor, the trust Molly’s parents placed in him.
He did not think it through because he did not want to think it through.
--- End quote ---
Not to totally excuse him, but one has to take into account Harry's mental/emotional state, plus
the fact that he had been severely injured which affected his abilty to think through what he was
asking of Molly. I also think based on the series up until Changes and even in the books since to some extent, Harry's belief that on some level Mab is evil. I know he saw becoming her Knight the least bad of the few very bad alternatives he had left. The only future he saw for himself, was being forced to do what he considered to be evil by her. Now part of that thinking might come from his own misunderstanding of the Winter Court, but considering what he had seen as far as Slate, Maeve, and even Lea and Mab, are understandable. Molly also understood his feelings in that direction, and she didn't wish that for him either, that is why I think she agreed to help him like she did. I also think Uriel also understood all of that, 1] because of his physical/mental/emotional condition Harry cannot be held fully responsible for what he asked of Molly. 2] She agreed, understood what she was doing, though perhaps not realizing what the guilt for it would do to her. 3] Lasciel's whispers sent all of that over the edge..
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version