The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace talks excerpt indications
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 12, 2020, 08:52:55 PM ---Assisted suicide isn't really the point. In some cultures it is perfectly acceptable. The point is what he did to get there. He had Molly break one of the seven laws.
--- End quote ---
No he did not. You can do everything in someone elses mind if you are invited. Otherwise you can not check for mindmagic and try to help healing people as for example the gatekeeper did after turn coat and training your apprentice in mental defence would also be impossible.
With invitation it is not an invasion anymore. This is completely disconnected from the moral implications of course but that is the law.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Avernite on April 12, 2020, 07:13:22 AM ---And Harry tricked her with Truth.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Mira on April 12, 2020, 11:35:02 AM --- Harry didn't trick Susan into turning, he told her no lies.
--- End quote ---
Harry lied to Susan when he told her Martin's steel machete couldn't harm her.
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 12, 2020, 12:52:46 PM ---[1]Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.
[2]CrusherJen - probably right about how much taint comes is partially to do with intention as much as result, and Susan's own Choice.
--- End quote ---
1. I don't recall the dark ley line. Maybe I need to re-read Changes! 2. I don't think so (though I'm a little confused by your phrasing). As indicated by your WoJ quote, Jim thinks results are more important than intent. The quote could be read to mean intent is irrelevant to the morality of the action. I think intent is highly relevant, but I'm not sure Jim does. Link your post with the WoJ:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 11, 2020, 01:51:06 AM ---
--- End quote ---
I think Susan and most of the Fellowship of St. Giles would have sacrificed themselves to destroy the Red Court. I think Susan would have done exactly what she did knowing full well what the consequences were. I think she chose to kill Martin even if it meant turning. She wasn't planning on wrestling with him. She went straight for the kill by biting his neck.
All that said, Harry lied to Susan, so we'll never know for sure. That was wrong. Was it the least wrong option? Maybe. I don't think he needed to lie to her. I don't know if he had time to explain the plan to her, but he didn't have to lie. He chose to manipulate Susan instead of letting her chose for herself. That seems wrong to me within the moral framework setup in the Dresden Files.
I do think the worst thing Harry did in Changes was what he did to Molly. I would cut him some slack because of the whole fallen angel thing.
I've always gotten the feeling that a non-magical act that has magical results doesn't result in black magic taint. Harry doesn't turn Helen Beckitt in and it's not made out to be that big of a deal that he didn't. I don't really have anything specific that makes me think that, but it's just the impression I've always gotten.
The morality of an act doesn't have much to do with whether or not it's black magic.
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 12, 2020, 12:52:46 PM ---Avernite - you are insisting he didn't engage in black magic, but you're basing that on your own opinion. You have failed to provide any evidence that it wasn't black magic, other than assertions. Considering how little information on black magic we have, that is understandable. But you need to do better and find some references to what does or doesn't qualify to support your argument.
--- End quote ---
The only solid things we have on black magic are:
1) the Laws
2) the Laws are incomplete
As such, I feel I am entirely within rights to oppose the positive claim (it was dark magic) with a negative (no it wasn't).
Now, I can add attempts to tear down the additional positive arguments why it IS black magic, which is what I've been doing. But there really isn't much 'evidence' to go on. We know Harry didn't violate the Law. We know the spell itself didn't obviously violate the Law, since it only killed vampires, not humans (though see the end of the post). So the only reason it could be Black Magic are:
- Killing Vampires is Black Magic, and a hole in the Laws (I see no indications of that in all the Council's war - we know Black Magic leaves a stain, and most every Warden has killed Vampires with magic, so it would have gotten noticeable)
- Using anything powered by human life, or just another's life, is Black Magic (which would make a Death Curse potential Black Magic, but at that point, who's counting?)
Now this last point, I cannot easily counter; we've seen (to jump series) the Alera books do consider magic-from-another's-life evil, but in the Dresden files every other use of human sacrifice I remember has been for obvious evil magic.
--- Quote ---As for the whole Archangel supporting his actions - 1) that's not been confirmed, but even if it was an archangel speaking through Murphy as others have pointed out that doesn't necessarily mean it was Right. Jim's whole point in the quote I provided is that Right and Wrong aren't necessarily owned or defined by the "good" or "bad" guys. A recurring motif is that there are lots of elements of grey (which even Harry isn't sure of) in morality. You might disagree, but that's how the books are written. I would also argue that just because the Almighty (TWG) thinks its okay to do mass destruction, genocide is genocide and many people might have a small issue with it. Including Dresden.
--- End quote ---
There are good and bad guys who have some bad and some good still in them, respectively (though I can't find back which post contains the quote you refer to). There are also literal VPs of creation who Fall if they do evil. So if the VP of creation says it's Good, you've got a good path there. In a world where there IS a final Judge of Good and Evil, said Judge can make absolute judgements.
Now, indeed, the said presumed (but not proven, and it matters) Archangel didn't say 'dear Red Court, you must all die, but through your own method', so it is possible that this was the wrong way to annihilate the Red Court, but it seemed pretty obvious mass destruction of the Red Court was sanctioned by the arbiters of Good and Evil.
--- Quote ---For those that argue that the half-vamps are not human enough, may I remind you that Thomas is mortal enough to be Winter Knight. Think less like the White Council and think more cosmically about Choice and things will get clearer.
--- End quote ---
I would say rather Harry didn't murder them. He took away the crutch that extended their life unnaturally. That it didn't work the way Wizard-extension does is a clear enough sign that the human was essentially dying very long. Kind of like how ending ICU treatment on a terminal patient, while the immediate cause of their dying then and there, isn't a killing (while killing a healthy 90-year old, the wizard in comparison, is a killing).
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry lied to Susan when he told her Martin's steel machete couldn't harm her.
--- End quote ---
The point is when he revealed to her that it was Martin who betrayed her, which led to her daughter being on the chopping block, she went ape shit and tore his throat out, leading to her turning.. So he lied about the steel knife, though she did some really dumb things that got her in the fix she was in, Susan wasn't a stupid woman.. I doubt she took him seriously, even if she did, her object once she realized what Martin was about, was to rip his throat out. Apparently Martin wasn't very good with his machete, because she succeeded, so it is a bit of a moot point.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 12, 2020, 11:35:02 AM --- Harry didn't trick Susan into turning, he told her no lies.
--- End quote ---
I think Harry did the right thing but I am not a Sidhe, in my book a deliberately incomplete truth is still a lie.
On second thought the Sidhe agree with me. They never say they can not lie as far as I can remember, the say they can not speak untruth.
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