The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Peace talks excerpt indications
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on April 12, 2020, 11:35:02 AM ---However no matter how much love she feels for Harry, Molly was an adult at the time. The religion she was raised in, teaches that suicide is a sin, to aid it would be a sin. She knew the consequences of assisting Harry's suicide for herself spiritually as well as him. She wasn't forced by Harry to make her decision, she may have underestimated the consequences of what the guilt would do to herself, but it was still her choice to aid him.
--- End quote ---
Molly was an adult but she was also Harry’s pupil. Harry was in a position of authority and trust and he abused that position. It was even worse than in a normal master pupil relationship because of the nature of the white council’s apprenticeship and the doom that was hanging over her. It was Harry’s responsibility to teach her and to prepare her for the world and this was not the way of doing it.
And age of consent might make a legal difference but if you know that you are abusing trust it is still wrong whatever age you are.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 12, 2020, 12:52:46 PM ---I am not arguing whether it was moral or not to kill Susan.
I am arguing that the ritual that Harry used was a evil ritual, as Morris said, regardless of how it was used.
I am arguing that using dark magic, even for a seemingly good result, still leaves a taint. A magic taint.
I am arguing that there are consequences beyond the Laws of Magic.
Mira, I would argue that while some men Fall from grace, some are pushed. Molly is in the latter category.
Arjan, we could have a debate about the ethics of whether killing a small nation of beings that murder, torture, terrify and feed of humanity. The problem with utilitarian ethics, is that it still sucks for the few it doesn't benefit.
--- End quote ---
With Trolley problems you do not have those argument. The only question is what is worse. Pulling the lever and let the train go to the other track of doing nothing and let it continue as planned by the red court.
If you read Harry’s discussion with Michael in skin game it is clear that Harry took the right decision in this according to Jim, Michael etc.
--- Quote ---Which flies in the face of the Christian belief that EVERY soul is worth saving, every person's life is important. Which lines up with the Dresden Files - Harry started a war over one soul, one life (Susan) knowing that it would cause terrible destruction. You might argue his choice was foolish (although I suspect Mirror Mirror will answer that). You might argue that he didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions (as the White Council did). But the answer Jim leans into, if you read closely, is that it was the right decision and that war was always coming. There is a recurring theme that one soul is always worth saving and fighting for. But I will leave it at that.
--- End quote ---
Because the choice between Susan and Peace was a false choice. Peace was never on the table anyway.
--- Quote ---G33k, you are essentially right. Harry practically committed war crimes (although you could argue that it is impossible against non-humans, as war crimes only apply to humans - but as Jim points out that is hardly fair).
Morris - you've hit the nail on the head. Agreed. And yes, parallels between the Fallen's treatment of Harry and Harry's treatment of Susan. I would go further and say Harry has been moulded for his whole life to do something just like that, even if it benefits the "good" guys. Harry is human enough, for the purposes of the book. He isn't totally (wizards are called freaks by the White Court) but he is mostly enough for the supernatural world. Only Jim knows where the line is. He certainly isn't by our standards, but as we don't have magic here (probably) there isn't much point in discussing it.
Avernite - you are insisting he didn't engage in black magic, but you're basing that on your own opinion. You have failed to provide any evidence that it wasn't black magic, other than assertions. Considering how little information on black magic we have, that is understandable. But you need to do better and find some references to what does or doesn't qualify to support your argument. As for the whole Archangel supporting his actions - 1) that's not been confirmed, but even if it was an archangel speaking through Murphy as others have pointed out that doesn't necessarily mean it was Right. Jim's whole point in the quote I provided is that Right and Wrong aren't necessarily owned or defined by the "good" or "bad" guys. A recurring motif is that there are lots of elements of grey (which even Harry isn't sure of) in morality. You might disagree, but that's how the books are written. I would also argue that just because the Almighty (TWG) thinks its okay to do mass destruction, genocide is genocide and many people might have a small issue with it. Including Dresden.
For those that argue that the half-vamps are not human enough, may I remind you that Thomas is mortal enough to be Winter Knight. Think less like the White Council and think more cosmically about Choice and things will get clearer.
Mira - I never said someone steps in front of the metaphorical car. Legally you'd still probably get a charge (although a number of factors such as what country you are in, how powerful your case is, your lawyers versus the families etc would affect that result and the severity of it). If you don't drive the car, no dead person. Harry doesn't use the ritual, no dead half-vamps. The ritual is black magic, built with black magic. Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.
CrusherJen - probably right about how much taint comes is partially to do with intention as much as result, and Susan's own Choice.
AClone - Have you read the Dresden Files?! The White Council exist in the story mostly to make Harry's life harder! If they can prosecute him for something, they probably will. It's all they do for most of the series. Just because Harry helped with one problem (which created arguably a greater problem) doesn't mean he'll get any thanks. Which is essentially the feel of Peace Talks anyway, more of Harry's choices coming back to haunt him.
--- End quote ---
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mira - I never said someone steps in front of the metaphorical car. Legally you'd still probably get a charge (although a number of factors such as what country you are in, how powerful your case is, your lawyers versus the families etc would affect that result and the severity of it). If you don't drive the car, no dead person. Harry doesn't use the ritual, no dead half-vamps. The ritual is black magic, built with black magic. Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.
--- End quote ---
There is the case of deliberate suicide, thus the person driving the car is the victim because he or she is being used by the person wanting to die. It happens also on the road, a car deliberately swerves in front of your car, suicide by cop is also common.
--- Quote ---Molly was an adult but she was also Harry’s pupil. Harry was in a position of authority and trust and he abused that position. It was even worse than in a normal master pupil relationship because of the nature of the white council’s apprenticeship and the doom that was hanging over her. It was Harry’s responsibility to teach her and to prepare her for the world and this was not the way of doing it.
--- End quote ---
I don't argue with that point, however before she became Harry's pupil, she was the child of Charity and Michael Carpenter for eighteen years. The whole of that time she was raised in the Catholic Church, she went to Catholic schools, she attended Catechism, she participated in her first Communion, she was Confirmed in the Church.... Though she did rebel against her parents and their values when she went off the rails towards becoming a warlock, I doubt that they could be totally blocked out. Being Harry's apprentice didn't brain wash her and turn her against all of those years of teaching, let alone her parents living what the Church teaches.
Harry in his desperation was wrong to ask her to help him, but it is a mistake to think that Molly wasn't aware of what she was doing or what it meant, she did. If she wasn't aware, she wouldn't have suffered any guilt, why would she? At the time she thought she was helping to save Harry from Mab by assisting his suicide. However none of that could overcome eighteen years of religious teaching against it, making her then second guess her decision..
Arjan:
The problem with non utilitarian ethics is that it can lead to choices that bring far more misery than necessary. But at the End most people don’t rely on those moral reasonings but they rely on their moral instincts and the best thing these frameworks do is to make you more aware of your decision making.
My instincts tell me that those half vampires fought their whole life against the infection and made it pretty clear by their words and actions what they wanted.
You don’t need a written declaration for everything.
morriswalters:
Assisted suicide isn't really the point. In some cultures it is perfectly acceptable. The point is what he did to get there. He had Molly break one of the seven laws. Again, and Jim does this over and over again, this is just why he got so angry at Ebeneezer. He was angry because Eb didn't practice what he preached.
This comes up over and over again in Turn Coat. You don't do mind magic. It twists you and the Council will kill you for it. I'd quote Turn Coat but everybody here knows it at least as well as I do. Harry doesn't practice what he preaches.
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