The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Peace talks excerpt indications

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morriswalters:
I'd give him a diminished capacity defense.  And anyway it sets up Ghost Story.  Harry's forced to face the consequences of his actions, and to do it more or less the way his allies do, without all the boom and bang.  And as I have pointed out elsewhere Harry is coming to see that when he moves he breaks things and he no longer has the option of hiding in his basement.

Arjan:
Depends on how you look at it. From a utilitarian point of view sacrificing Susan on that altar, even by triggering her to kill Martin, was the only right thing to do. It saved countless people from horrible fates and Harry could reasonably assume that it was what Susan wanted. It is also what had to be done to defend reality against the outsiders, at that point in time the vampires were their tools.

Similar for all the members of st Giles. Harry did not ask their formal agreement but their whole life after infection expressed their will, they did make their choices, they did make their wishes clear just like Susan did.

In Ghost Story we see that Harry’s suicide and handling of Molly is seen as the real crime and I tend to agree and not just because that seems to be what the archangels think.

Avernite:

--- Quote from: g33k on April 11, 2020, 10:52:40 PM ---He tricked Susan into being no-longer-human ... and thus eligible to be killed without it "counting" as murder ?   Sorry, no.

In fact, HELL no.

Morally, this is identical to killing her before she had turned; as others have said, he took away her Choice.  He chose on her behalf, and then murdered her for it.

It's also worth noting it as a classic "warcrimes" method:  first, you dehumanize them; then you can feel OK about murdering them.

===

Now, you may be able to argue a "greater good" argument.

You may be able to argue "time of war, tragedies happen."

You may be able to argue that "It's what Susan would have chosen, if Harry had been able to lay it out for her."  This is the most tempting argument of all:  Susan would have wanted it.

None of which alter the fundamental fact that Susan entered that temple with a range of choices, but then Harry took all her choices from her... and then he killed her, for reacting in the only way she could.

--- End quote ---
I obviously disagree.

Susan came into that temple half a human. Ready to lay down her remaining life to save her daughter, if it should come to that. Her Choice was back in Chicago, when she, like all the rest, Chose to join Hrry on a crazed adventure that should be rights have ended with all of them dead.

Sure, she could have later Chosen to back out, hence why Harry did trick her when he saw how she could make it work on the Choice she pre-arranged for in Chicago (or even before Changes started, though I think she still hoped to live then).

And Harry tricked her with Truth. Martin HAD sold Maggie out. And in the Mab-Harry scene where Mab shows Maggie, Jim Butcher (through Harry) indicates that makes the trickery not so bad - if Susan thought killing Martin was worth her humanity, that is her Choice. And that Harry sees giving her that Choice allows them to save Maggie, well... that Choiice Susan made, too, if only after the first one, where Harry clearly saw both consequences before giving the 'lose humanity to kill the traitor' Choice.

Mira:

--- Quote ---He tricked Susan into being no-longer-human ... and thus eligible to be killed without it "counting" as murder ?   Sorry, no.
--- End quote ---

   Harry didn't trick Susan into turning, he told her no lies.  What he did was reveal to her that Martin was the cause of her daughter being about to be sacrificed by the Red King, knowing it would
enrage her into killing him and turning.  It was the only play he had left to save their daughter.  If
she could have held it together once she found out, she wouldn't have turned,  Maggie, Harry, and Eb would have died, then most likely she would have turned anyway.. The Red King would have insisted upon it. 

--- Quote ---In Ghost Story we see that Harry’s suicide and handling of Molly is seen as the real crime and I tend to agree and not just because that seems to be what the archangels think.

--- End quote ---

However no matter how much love she feels for Harry, Molly was an adult at the time.  The religion she was raised in, teaches that suicide is a sin, to aid it would be a sin.  She knew the consequences of assisting Harry's suicide for herself spiritually as well as him.  She wasn't forced by Harry to make her decision, she may have underestimated the consequences of what the guilt would do to herself, but it was still her choice to aid him.

Yuillegan:
I am not arguing whether it was moral or not to kill Susan.

I am arguing that the ritual that Harry used was a evil ritual, as Morris said, regardless of how it was used.

I am arguing that using dark magic, even for a seemingly good result, still leaves a taint. A magic taint.

I am arguing that there are consequences beyond the Laws of Magic.

Mira, I would argue that while some men Fall from grace, some are pushed. Molly is in the latter category.

Arjan, we could have a debate about the ethics of whether killing a small nation of beings that murder, torture, terrify and feed of humanity. The problem with utilitarian ethics, is that it still sucks for the few it doesn't benefit. Which flies in the face of the Christian belief that EVERY soul is worth saving, every person's life is important. Which lines up with the Dresden Files - Harry started a war over one soul, one life (Susan) knowing that it would cause terrible destruction. You might argue his choice was foolish (although I suspect Mirror Mirror will answer that). You might argue that he didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions (as the White Council did). But the answer Jim leans into, if you read closely, is that it was the right decision and that war was always coming. There is a recurring theme that one soul is always worth saving and fighting for. But I will leave it at that.

G33k, you are essentially right. Harry practically committed war crimes (although you could argue that it is impossible against non-humans, as war crimes only apply to humans - but as Jim points out that is hardly fair).

Morris - you've hit the nail on the head. Agreed. And yes, parallels between the Fallen's treatment of Harry and Harry's treatment of Susan. I would go further and say Harry has been moulded for his whole life to do something just like that, even if it benefits the "good" guys. Harry is human enough, for the purposes of the book. He isn't totally (wizards are called freaks by the White Court) but he is mostly enough for the supernatural world. Only Jim knows where the line is. He certainly isn't by our standards, but as we don't have magic here (probably) there isn't much point in discussing it.

Avernite - you are insisting he didn't engage in black magic, but you're basing that on your own opinion. You have failed to provide any evidence that it wasn't black magic, other than assertions. Considering how little information on black magic we have, that is understandable. But you need to do better and find some references to what does or doesn't qualify to support your argument. As for the whole Archangel supporting his actions - 1) that's not been confirmed, but even if it was an archangel speaking through Murphy as others have pointed out that doesn't necessarily mean it was Right. Jim's whole point in the quote I provided is that Right and Wrong aren't necessarily owned or defined by the "good" or "bad" guys. A recurring motif is that there are lots of elements of grey (which even Harry isn't sure of) in morality. You might disagree, but that's how the books are written. I would also argue that just because the Almighty (TWG) thinks its okay to do mass destruction, genocide is genocide and many people might have a small issue with it. Including Dresden.

For those that argue that the half-vamps are not human enough, may I remind you that Thomas is mortal enough to be Winter Knight. Think less like the White Council and think more cosmically about Choice and things will get clearer.

Mira - I never said someone steps in front of the metaphorical car. Legally you'd still probably get a charge (although a number of factors such as what country you are in, how powerful your case is, your lawyers versus the families etc would affect that result and the severity of it). If you don't drive the car, no dead person. Harry doesn't use the ritual, no dead half-vamps. The ritual is black magic, built with black magic. Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.

CrusherJen - probably right about how much taint comes is partially to do with intention as much as result, and Susan's own Choice.

AClone - Have you read the Dresden Files?! The White Council exist in the story mostly to make Harry's life harder! If they can prosecute him for something, they probably will. It's all they do for most of the series. Just because Harry helped with one problem (which created arguably a greater problem) doesn't mean he'll get any thanks. Which is essentially the feel of Peace Talks anyway, more of Harry's choices coming back to haunt him.

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