The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Should representatives from the Paranet attend peace talks

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g33k:

--- Quote from: Arjan on October 18, 2019, 09:22:04 AM ---... No way. If the council recognises individual wizards with their retainers as accord members every warlock under pressure is going to try that.
--- End quote ---
The White Council doesn't get a say:  they are subject to the Accords, not in charge of them.

A prospective Accord member just has to get a few existing Accord members to sign/sponsor them.  That's how Marcone got in.  In the abstract, that's how rando-warlock could get in.

(Of course, the newly-Accorded party needs to demonstrate they CAN play in the Big Leagues... note how the Denarian's attacked Marcone, with the cover-story that they were removing a "presumptuous upstart" not really "entitled" to be Accorded; and without an Accorded protest, that action would evidently be allowed to stand!  So if Rando-Warlocks tried to get Accorded -- and actually got the signatures -- then the WC could just "Nope" and arrest them anyhow; then see if anyone else wanted to protest, in that "Willing to paint a big sign on myself saying, PrimaryTargetOfWhiteCouncil" way...  Maybe add a day of waiting before the execution?).

But the WAG here is NOT Elaine getting recognized as an individual wizard (with retainers), but the Paranet, the organization (with her at the head, admittedly) getting recognized.  What the Paranet needs -- since they aren't ON the White Council -- is enough mojo to make a credible showing in their own right.

I'm WAG'ing that they CAN muster that mojo, as follows...

Elaine shows up as splashy and powerful, to be The Face, to make an impression.  But there's a LOT of paranet'ers.  The same way Ordo Lebes joined forces to raise wards that none of them could have solo'ed, Elaine's own magical-theorycraft & position (coordinating a continentful of Paranet'ers!) could let her gather quite a bit of power into items and enchantments.  A bit of Cassandra's-Tears precog in battle (so she knows what EVERY foe is most-likely to do, a second or two before they do it) and many many more little bits of advantage.  The ocean itself is made up of many many drops of water, after all; and Elaine's capacity to contain and inform and concentrate and leverage those little bits of power could produce truly formidable results.  She could probably get serious power-boosts for some lieutenant-y figures, too... imagine if all the Alpha's had a half-dozen Paranet-given battle-buff's, for example.

And maybe (or rather, probably) Agent "I can magically tell when you are lying" Tilly as a Paranet member... and his backup, the 70000+ Special Forces operatives the US military maintains; some of whom can -- in the leadup to the Peace Talks -- be given a Spooky Infodump & special training for Whamps, Blamps, Summer & Winter Courts, Wildfae & The Hunt, various were's and other shapeshifters, etc etc etc...

Masquerade bye-bye.


--- Quote from: Arjan on October 18, 2019, 09:22:04 AM --- Kemmler would have been a member.
--- End quote ---
The de-facto WC position seems to have been that Kemmler was a member -- they killed him for breaking WC laws.  If Kemmler had been willing to abide by those laws, and showed up at Council meetings to be a voting member, they'd have been "yeah, sure, strong enough, of course you're on the WC."

They don't try to assert a death-penalty on every Whamp who does a psychic takeover of mortals, for example, because the WC's Laws don't apply to Whamps.

They don't invite minor talents to join the Council, because not strong enough; so Paranet talents aren't part of the WC, aren't Accorded.

The WC (Harry) chose to assert protection over them, but they aren't part of the Accords.  The WC also chooses to visit/warn any group or individual they notice developing enough power to potentially break the Laws, and order them not to do that; but that's more akin to how Vamps order their mortal minions/food around.  Justine cannot make her own claim under the Accords; but she can present Lara's claim.

It boils down to GETTING onto the Accords with the sponsoring member's signing you up; then STAYING there when a whole bunch of next-level powers start testing your new status -- there is no "spirit of the Accords" (except maybe a "Law of the Jungle" spirit).

So if Elaine makes a Paranet-based claim -- if she gets the signatures -- then the Paranet is an Accorded party.  Maybe the WC then says to her "hey, you're one of US!"  At that point -- with a separate Accorded power-base -- she might not even protest that much (or she might deny them, pointing to their prior tests, and say it's the Paranet that gives her enough power).  But she could be BOTH Paranet AND on the WC... then she's Accorded under both groups (as are, for example Vadderung / Kringle, or a certain WC-Warden & the Winter Knight, and I presume others).
 

--- Quote from: Arjan on October 18, 2019, 09:22:04 AM --- ... The council will claim her and she gets a grey cloack and no other members will complain so she better keeps her head low.
--- End quote ---
They need to persuade everyone to go Greycloak, they can't force them (because one unwilling battlemage in a group, who decided to go rogue to escape, could destroy the whole group by a strategically chosen moment to rebel).  Harry wasn't happy to put it on, but in the end he chose to.

As above, she can probably refuse the WC, under a separate Accorded status (but I suspect she would not, because WC membership would enhance her abuility to elevate the Paranet).  But she WOULD likely refuse to Greycloak, because she cannot reasonably do her head-of-Paranet duties while being subject to Warden Command.
 

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: Arjan on October 17, 2019, 05:26:02 PM ---Who are human but not strong and versatile enough for the white council.

They police them because they claim them. Accord factions police their own.

Elaine has all three and Ramirez would have claimed her for the wardens if she had showed her real power and ability.

--- End quote ---
Are you saying that the Paranet is every human who isn't on the White Council, or are you putting an upper bracket on my lower bracket description?

The point of the White Council is to enforce the laws of magic. That's why the police them. That they the Council could claim a protectable interest in them was considered a novel approach by Harry in White Night.

Because dedication is required, membership in the Council has always been somewhat voluntary. I also thing the situation during the war with the Red Court was probably an anomalous situation like the draft. I don't have any proof for all this; it's just a gut feeling.


--- Quote from: 123Chikadee on October 18, 2019, 01:03:49 AM ---@BadAlias: I meant that I believe that Peace Talks is gonna get so crazy that the masquerade is gonna get broken. ... At first I thought PT was the beginning of the masquerade breaking but then Butcher brought out 'Christmas Eve' and those numbers made me rethink that.

--- End quote ---
I don't think it will be broken until very close to the end of the series, but I'd say that it has already started breaking based on some comments in one of the books after Changes. I can't remember which, but it was something like "it's getting bad, Harry. Even the media is beginning to take notice of weird things happening."


--- Quote from: Avernite on October 18, 2019, 03:56:45 PM ---if 3 members sign up a Warlock, that's 3 members who are on the Council's kill-list.

--- End quote ---
I'd say that's the case only if signing up someone is allying with them. I'd say it's not because Marcone and the Council aren't allies. Though, I imagine the Council would definitely not appreciate those three members doing that.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: g33k on October 18, 2019, 04:52:00 PM ---The White Council doesn't get a say:  they are subject to the Accords, not in charge of them.

--- End quote ---
Not in charge of the accords but they claim authority over human magic users and that claim is recognised by the other accords members. See white Night. And that is the reason why the accords are no help for warlocks.

--- Quote ---A prospective Accord member just has to get a few existing Accord members to sign/sponsor them.  That's how Marcone got in.  In the abstract, that's how rando-warlock could get in.

--- End quote ---
Marcone was not claimed by any other faction. If he was the whole thing would have been more complicated.

--- Quote ---(Of course, the newly-Accorded party needs to demonstrate they CAN play in the Big Leagues... note how the Denarian's attacked Marcone, with the cover-story that they were removing a "presumptuous upstart" not really "entitled" to be Accorded; and without an Accorded protest, that action would evidently be allowed to stand!  So if Rando-Warlocks tried to get Accorded -- and actually got the signatures -- then the WC could just "Nope" and arrest them anyhow; then see if anyone else wanted to protest, in that "Willing to paint a big sign on myself saying, PrimaryTargetOfWhiteCouncil" way...  Maybe add a day of waiting before the execution?).

But the WAG here is NOT Elaine getting recognized as an individual wizard (with retainers), but the Paranet, the organization (with her at the head, admittedly) getting recognized.  What the Paranet needs -- since they aren't ON the White Council -- is enough mojo to make a credible showing in their own right.

--- End quote ---
The paranetters do not have enough weight for that. They are prey or people to protect.

--- Quote ---I'm WAG'ing that they CAN muster that mojo, as follows...

Elaine shows up as splashy and powerful, to be The Face, to make an impression.  But there's a LOT of paranet'ers.  The same way Ordo Lebes joined forces to raise wards that none of them could have solo'ed, Elaine's own magical-theorycraft & position (coordinating a continentful of Paranet'ers!) could let her gather quite a bit of power into items and enchantments.  A bit of Cassandra's-Tears precog in battle (so she knows what EVERY foe is most-likely to do, a second or two before they do it) and many many more little bits of advantage.  The ocean itself is made up of many many drops of water, after all; and Elaine's capacity to contain and inform and concentrate and leverage those little bits of power could produce truly formidable results.  She could probably get serious power-boosts for some lieutenant-y figures, too... imagine if all the Alpha's had a half-dozen Paranet-given battle-buff's, for example.

And maybe (or rather, probably) Agent "I can magically tell when you are lying" Tilly as a Paranet member... and his backup, the 70000+ Special Forces operatives the US military maintains; some of whom can -- in the leadup to the Peace Talks -- be given a Spooky Infodump & special training for Whamps, Blamps, Summer & Winter Courts, Wildfae & The Hunt, various were's and other shapeshifters, etc etc etc...

Masquerade bye-bye.
The de-facto WC position seems to have been that Kemmler was a member -- they killed him for breaking WC laws.  If Kemmler had been willing to abide by those laws, and showed up at Council meetings to be a voting member, they'd have been "yeah, sure, strong enough, of course you're on the WC."

--- End quote ---
Member is a big word. The white council position is that as a human wizard he was their responsibility. But I meant member of the accords. He had more power than some members but he did not try that. Most likely because he could not, the white council had already claimed authority.

--- Quote ---They don't try to assert a death-penalty on every Whamp who does a psychic takeover of mortals, for example, because the WC's Laws don't apply to Whamps.

They don't invite minor talents to join the Council, because not strong enough; so Paranet talents aren't part of the WC, aren't Accorded.

--- End quote ---
Not members as such but the white council claims them.

--- Quote ---The WC (Harry) chose to assert protection over them, but they aren't part of the Accords.  The WC also chooses to visit/warn any group or individual they notice developing enough power to potentially break the Laws, and order them not to do that; but that's more akin to how Vamps order their mortal minions/food around.  Justine cannot make her own claim under the Accords; but she can present Lara's claim.

It boils down to GETTING onto the Accords with the sponsoring member's signing you up; then STAYING there when a whole bunch of next-level powers start testing your new status -- there is no "spirit of the Accords" (except maybe a "Law of the Jungle" spirit).

So if Elaine makes a Paranet-based claim -- if she gets the signatures -- then the Paranet is an Accorded party.  Maybe the WC then says to her "hey, you're one of US!"  At that point -- with a separate Accorded power-base -- she might not even protest that much (or she might deny them, pointing to their prior tests, and say it's the Paranet that gives her enough power).  But she could be BOTH Paranet AND on the WC... then she's Accorded under both groups (as are, for example Vadderung / Kringle, or a certain WC-Warden & the Winter Knight, and I presume others).
 They need to persuade everyone to go Greycloak, they can't force them (because one unwilling battlemage in a group, who decided to go rogue to escape, could destroy the whole group by a strategically chosen moment to rebel).  Harry wasn't happy to put it on, but in the end he chose to.

As above, she can probably refuse the WC, under a separate Accorded status (but I suspect she would not, because WC membership would enhance her abuility to elevate the Paranet).  But she WOULD likely refuse to Greycloak, because she cannot reasonably do her head-of-Paranet duties while being subject to Warden Command.

--- End quote ---
She does not have the power to refuse the white council. Just one wizard and a lot of nobodies. And refusing the cloack might not be an option. Harry got drafted.

But she could keep her paranet hobby. Harry kept his private investigator hobby for years. She just has to turn up when needed.

Kindler:
On the Peace Talks masquerade-breakage: there is a WOJ somewhere (within the past couple of years) that there will be an event that is too big to simply cover up. I don't think it's a full-on case of Vanillas acknowledging the supernatural, but I do think that it's going to start in Peace Talks.
Couple that with Harry's narration in the Christmas short about there being (click to show/hide)thousands of funerals and tens of thousands injured after PT, I think that we're talking about a major disaster. Like, worse than 9/11. That's a couple of city blocks getting flattened, or an enormous, full-scale assault.
I am not going into it, but there are still theories that reject the official story of that event (please, please let's not discuss them here; I'm only mentioning them because the fact that those theories exist is relevant to my point) 18 years later. If, say, the Fomor drop a massive bomb (like the one Molly disarms in Bombshells, but on a much larger, city-level scale) during Peace Talks, people are going to ask questions. Mortal authorities are not going to be able to come up with a story that adequately covers up something at that scale. Lots of people won't buy "terrorism" as the answer.
So I think Peace Talks is going to be when the masquerade starts to slip. It's going to take some time before enough people—probably starting with people like the guy who was tracking boat rentals in Cold Days—start to question the narrative and find out what really happened. Too many eyewitnesses left alive, too many unanswered questions that aren't adequately explained, too many people in the ground.
So... yeah. I think that, by the end of Body Slam, Humanity will have begun to really take notice of the supernatural, and things are going to get complicated.

dspringer1:
My own two cents.

1) The White Council represents both their own members and human wizards in general.   That is why they can hunt down warlocks as they are policing their own.  This is also why Harry could challenge the white court dudes based on their targeting of talented mortals. 

2) If the Paranet established themselves as Accord members (aka their own nation), they would be specifically exempting themselves from White Council oversight.  How that plays with the hunting of warlocks would be a highly political question.

3) There is NO WAY the paraneters today have the the power to establish themselves as an accord nation.  Their power is just way too weak.  I do not care how powerful Elaine is, you would need a hundred Elaines to begin to have enough power to establish the paraneters as a true supernatural nation under the accords. 

3) The Paranet might be able to establish themselves as a 2nd tier organization like that human society that is an ally of the White Council.  Clearly much weaker than the White Council or any other full accord member, but they have some formal status/place within the larger supernatural community and could formally ally with one of the supernatural nations like the White Council.  That status would give them more protection/status than they have today and I think that is one of the two possible outcomes Harry planned for when establishing the Paranet to begin with.    The other (preferred) being that the White Council expands itself to include the lesser talents. 

4) I do not think the paranetters can establish themselves as Free Holding Lords.  That status belongs to an individual, not an organization.  Elaine lacks the enough power to make that stick on her own and the paranet lacks the huge financial resources/muscle that Marcone has to effectively back her up.  Freestanding lord would only apply to Elaine in any case.  The other members of the paranet would only get indirect protection as her vassals and I doubt that would be worth anything more than the indirect protection they already get today from the White Council. 

5) I have no idea how the Accords would handle organizations like the United Sates of America trying to join if the magical world becomes public knowledge.   Although i do agree that this problem will not come up in Peace Talks. 

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