The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Drakul is the third Walker

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Bad Alias:
I've always had a problem with the exercise of free will creates another timeline. Doesn't that just mean that there is a (actually several, taking into account others' choices) Harry out there that has never exercised free will because he exists in the timeline in which he didn't make the choice and just acted in accord with his nature? Doesn't that mean that that Harry doesn't have free will because 1. he must exist, and 2. he must not exercise free will in order to exist?  :o

Since free will is the choice to act against ones nature, wouldn't someone in the exact same situation as they had been be able exercise free will when they hadn't before? Definitely a metaphysical question. A detailed explanation of how time travel works might help persuade me one way or the other.

Once again, I'm not really partial to the idea that Drakul is the Devil's offspring, and I am partial to your idea that he is an Outsider somehow trapped here in a human form. One definition of Anti-Christ is "a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church," so that would include evangelical atheists like Richard Dawkins, Muslims who seek to convert Christians, and probably plenty of examples of other people most would describe as perfectly decent individuals. Only a couple of theological beliefs even define the Anti-Christ as the spawn of Satan. But if Satan can have a child, why not a dozen?

Yuillegan:
Mmmm yes I know what you mean. I am not sure I would have written it myself as it creates so many problems, but this is Jim's party, as they say. Hopefully Jim does a really good Time Travel book - it seems he has already begun to lay the foundations in Cold Days so I expect Mirror Mirror to be very enlightening (and will be rather disappointed if it is not). But notoriously difficult and tricky to write too, considering the physics isn't even that clear on how it should all work (and there are many theories, and interpretations of those theories)! But you are tying my head in a pretzel with your questions about multiple Harry's. I suppose you question assumes that all possible Harry's exist, rather than just some. If it is just some, then they would likely tend towards being the same (consider the Law for the Conservation of History, as Harry puts it). But if they all exist then likely there is at least one Harry that doesn't ever act against his nature, probably because the Devil has won in that creation (if not several versions). Which I imagine means Uriel or one of the other Archangel's nuke the whole thing at that point. I see the whole war being like an enormous game of Go or Mahjong...it's not about winning one game, but the set. But it is rather a bleak view of existence.  But to answer your question, no. Harry always has Free Will -whether he chooses to use it or not is an entirely different matter. Just because he never has exercised his ability to Choose, doesn't mean he can't. Your conclusion is wrong because one of the premises of your argument is false - Free Will is NOT the ability to choose to act against one's nature. Free Will is the ability to Choose. Period. It only matters whether you can Choose, not whether you act in accordance with your nature, or against it. Quite probably what the Devil is so upset about, at least in the Dresden Files.

The whole timeline thing has the same problem as the Base-Reality theory (which is popular amongst the computer simulation crowd - a la the Matrix - which of course is just a much older theory with a new coat of paint). Which is the first Time Line? How could you even tell? Is it more important than all the others? Does it still exist or did it fail? That is too deep a rabbit hole for this discussion I suspect, fun as it is.

As for the Antichrist issue - well, that is an interesting way of looking at it. Drakul fits the role with what he is, rather than it being integral to his origins. Like if a person is a fireman. You are not necessarily born one, but you can become one by your choices and your actions.

But. To answer your question about why the Devil can't have several - just reading it gave me the answer. Because I suspect it is against his very nature. Commonly, TWG is equated to be similar in most aspects to the Christian God. The God of Love. Harry says the act of creating a child, a soul, is a fundamental act of love. Two souls combining to create a new third soul, separate from the original two. Now you could argue that definitely love is often not involved in creating a child, and Jim often leaves things very vague and mystical in this area, but you could imagine at the point that TWG creates that new soul, that is an act of Love. I really have no idea how Jim looks at this in his world, and I suspect we will never ever get a clear answer as it probably runs too close to his own views (and Jim is quite private about that stuff).

So I think unless the Devil fell in love, he couldn't make a soul. It requires a full-on act of love. And the Devil cut himself off from Love, or so we are led to believe (unless he actually serves a purpose in Creation). Maybe that's how it happens and then he gets mad when something goes wrong. Who knows? Unlike Dresden though, he really could burn the entire world.

The other side of this is of course, that in creating an Antichrist or several, he is really just creating the possibility of an Antichrist. And that because his child would be half-mortal, they get the freedom to Choose. Which I imagine would piss him right off.

JUST TO BE CLEAR TO ANYONE READING - this is purely a discussion for how things might work in the Dresden Files. It doesn't necessarily reflect my views, and isn't gospel in our world. So please don't get mad. I know this is skirting a tad close to Touchy Topics so I am doing my best to stay away from the line. 

g33k:
<heh>  The multi-universe thing, Free Will, choices creating new branches, etc... has given me a realization.

Somewhere in the multiverse, there's a universe where nobody has made any "choice" that departed from the basics of who they are... nobody ever exercised their Free Will.

THAT is the "real" universe, the one from which, ultimately, all others diverge.  Everything else is an "alternate" universe of that one.


No wonder God likes free will so much !!!
 

Bad Alias:
I think choice is the decision to act outside one's nature. WoJ about Bob and free will:

--- Quote ---Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it. She simply isn't capable. She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do. It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.
--- End quote ---

The premise of Mirror Mirror is that Harry made a different choice/didn't make a choice in Grave Peril and every time a Choice is made, the universe splits. One universe in which the Choice is made, and one in which it wasn't. Therefore there must be a universe in which Harry hasn't made a single choice. Because that universe must exist, there has to be a Harry incapable of making choices.

Maybe this is a misunderstanding and any Choice point causing a split is where different Choices happened, but I don't really see how that works.

As to the Spawn of Satan (SoS) issue, how could one SoS show up if love is against his nature and creating a child requires love? Also, how could Goodman Grey show up?

While we're on the subjects of SoS and free will, a thing that has always annoyed me in fiction centered on the SoS and his or her struggle to not be evil, I've basically never seen one where some character points out that this person, the SoS, should have free will just like their parents. Generally, angels and humans are considered to have free will. Angels can't change their mind because they exist outside of time, so their choice to move in one direction has always and will always exist, or at least that's how it was explained to me once. So a SoS should be able to exercise free will and not be evil. It would at least make any story about one more interesting as there wouldn't be a necessarily foregone conclusion to the story.

I'd also like to see in one of these stories where someone sells their soul to the Devil that relies heavily on Christian beliefs, to have the solution be the obvious solution of repentance and forgiveness, which is kinda a big deal in Christianity. I'd love to see something where a character figures that out and says something along the lines of "no, it doesn't work that way." I just can't imagine it being done in an entertaining way that doesn't feel very preachy and cheesy.

To relate that back to the DF, this seems like this may be the case with Michael. Michael offered to trade himself for the Sword. Lea said "For once the Redeemer's blade was in your hands again, you would find the shattering of our pact a simple enough matter." Why wasn't Harry able to do this? Why did his attempt result in the Sword rejecting him and leaving itself vulnerable? Perhaps because Harry lacks faith? Just seems a little weird to me.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on August 21, 2019, 08:28:47 PM --- ... that universe must exist, there has to be a Harry incapable of making choices ...
--- End quote ---
Not incapable... he just hasn't.

If you can't make a choice, there is no choice!



--- Quote from: Bad Alias on August 21, 2019, 08:28:47 PM --- ... So a SoS should be able to exercise free will and not be evil. It would at least make any story about one more interesting as there wouldn't be a necessarily foregone conclusion to the story.
--- End quote ---
The usual presumption here is "bad blood" -- free will from the human side, but a powerful pull toward evil, from the Infernal side.  So they CAN be good... it's just really REALLY hard for them (much harder than it is for you and I).


--- Quote from: Bad Alias on August 21, 2019, 08:28:47 PM ---I'd also like to see in one of these stories where someone sells their soul to the Devil that relies heavily on Christian beliefs, to have the solution be the obvious solution of repentance and forgiveness, which is kinda a big deal in Christianity. I'd love to see something where a character figures that out and says something along the lines of "no, it doesn't work that way." I just can't imagine it being done in an entertaining way that doesn't feel very preachy and cheesy.
--- End quote ---
It goes one of two ways, I think...
deathbed repentance, which sometimes seems like a stupid "get out of jail free" cardtrick, and I hate (but a LOT of people did the priest-at-bedside to confess not just sins-since-last-Sunday, but a litany of never-confessed sins).  I mean, if your ONLY motivation is escaping punishment, I don't consider that true "repentance" for the sins.

I've also seen the last-minute repentance where St.Peter at the Gates of Heaven says, "Really?  You expect us to believe that bullpucky?  Sorry, nope!"

For the "genuine repentance" thing, look to the song "Amazing Grace" and the story of its writing.  Someone who repents because they have repented, not because they are afraid of imminent punishment.

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