The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
Bad Alias:
@Morris: What, precisely, does that quote answer? It's reasons why Billy thinks he should be fully informed. He's not really even asking that Harry inform the Alphas of everything, only their leader. He's also stating that changing past actions could have, but not necessarily would have, changed the outcome. And as you said, what happened at the Raith mansion is pretty strong evidence that Harry could not have adequately prepared them for the attack.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 06, 2019, 04:32:52 PM ---@Morris: What, precisely, does that quote answer? It's reasons why Billy thinks he should be fully informed. He's not really even asking that Harry inform the Alphas of everything, only their leader. He's also stating that changing past actions could have, but not necessarily would have, changed the outcome. And as you said, what happened at the Raith mansion is pretty strong evidence that Harry could not have adequately prepared them for the attack.
--- End quote ---
However Kirby's death happened before the attack on the Raith mansion... Harry had no clue until the aftermath of the attack that killed Kirby that it was a skinwalker.. At that point Harry didn't know that much himself about them except they were bad ass and looking at one with his wizard's sight made him nearly catatonic for an hour and half... So basically when Kirby and company came to Harry's aid that first time he had no information to give beyond what he had... So again, as Will himself said, Kirby's death was not on Harry... Keeping stuff back after that when he had more information is another story... All of the above is in the text... Saying that Harry owes them more information doesn't mean he blames him for Kirby's death... All Will is saying they have proven with Kirby's death that they are willing to lay it all on the line for him, and that the least Harry can do is give them all the information he has...
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 06, 2019, 05:38:52 PM ---All of the above is in the text... Saying that Harry owes them more information doesn't mean he blames him for Kirby's death... All Will is saying they have proven with Kirby's death that they are willing to lay it all on the line for him, and that the least Harry can do is give them all the information he has...
--- End quote ---
I think it should be pretty clear that it isn't all in the text because you say the text says 1, I say it says 0, and Morris says it says -1. Either two of us are idiots, or there is room for interpretation.
I read Will's statement as Harry shouldn't be the one deciding for them whether or not they should be informed and take on the danger and responsibility of knowing.
morriswalters:
The OP's question, how often does withholding information get people hurt, is answered explicitly in the text, at least for the Alphas. Harry's strategy of keeping the Alphas in the dark to protect them, failed. Kirby dies and Andi is badly injured.
--- Quote ---I’d been careful to control what information he and the Alphas had gotten from me, in an effort to protect them. And it had worked—for a while.
But now things were different. Kirby’s death had seen to that.
--- End quote ---
This seems fairly straightforward.
@Mira
The point of bringing up the attack at Raith Manor is to point out that once Harry had led the skinwalker to the Alphas, that someone would die if the skinwalker wanted them dead. The Alphas had not a chance in hell. This is the nature of Harry's failure. Harry as written, believed in two contradictory things, that he could protect them by keeping them in the dark and that he could use them without this eventually happening.
Fun facts. Jim evidently is fond of beating us over the head with things by using them twice in a book.
When the skinwalker kills the lights, Kirby uses his phone and is revealed by the light. He uses this a second time when Peabody kills the lights and releases the mordite and everybody that creates lights, are killed.
In the second example, first Jim has Will complain about Harry keeping them in the dark and then has Harry complaining about the Council doing the same thing.
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 06, 2019, 05:55:04 PM ---I think it should be pretty clear that it isn't all in the text because you say the text says 1, I say it says 0, and Morris says it says -1. Either two of us are idiots, or there is room for interpretation.
I read Will's statement as Harry shouldn't be the one deciding for them whether or not they should be informed and take on the danger and responsibility of knowing.
--- End quote ---
I volunteer as the idiot.
Bad Alias:
1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.
2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did.
I don't understand how anyone can agree with both statements. (I agree with statement two, mostly. The skinwalker killed Kirby as a message; therefore, it could have killed a different Alpha because Harry did something that lead to different results, but the skinwalker was definitely going to kill an Alpha if Harry went to Will's place).
I read the quote, mostly because I can't see how fully briefing Billy would have changed anything, as either Harry illogically blaming his withholding of information for Kirby's death or simply stating that Billy wasn't going to follow blindly because Kirby died. Kirby's death cements the seriousness of Will's role as leader for Will.
No one has demonstrated how Harry briefing Billy on the wider world of the supernatural could have saved Kirby. Until someone does that, I'm going to remain obstinate in my position that Harry's withholding of information did not get Kirby killed. I'll go so far as to say it is hypothetically possible, but that's it until someone can at least give me a hypothetical.
Even if in the text Billy said "Kirby is dead because you withheld information from us," and Dresden said "That is correct," I would still say "what" because, as you said, the skinwalker was going to kill whoever it wanted anyway.
How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right? ;)
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