The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
g33k:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 06, 2019, 06:49:36 PM --- ... How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right? ;)
--- End quote ---
They say one of the hallmarks of a good compromise is that nobody is really satisfied with the outcome.
Ergo: nobody is "right."
Mira:
--- Quote ---@Mira
The point of bringing up the attack at Raith Manor is to point out that once Harry had led the skinwalker to the Alphas, that someone would die if the skinwalker wanted them dead. The Alphas had not a chance in hell. This is the nature of Harry's failure. Harry as written, believed in two contradictory things, that he could protect them by keeping them in the dark and that he could use them without this eventually happening.
--- End quote ---
No, the event with Kirby happened before that attack on Raith Manor... Biggest point Harry had no clue what is was he saw, it put him in a state of collapse when he showed up at Will and Georgia's house... Only after the first battle did he realize it was a skinwalker, and he told Will straight off....
--- Quote ---1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.
--- End quote ---
No, Harry had with held nothing, all he knew was it was big, bad, and so ugly it made him catatonic, he conveyed that information, the pack still backed him..
--- Quote ---2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did
--- End quote ---
Most likely, only difference Kirby would have known what killed him when it did..
--- Quote ---I don't understand how anyone can agree with both statements. (I agree with statement two, mostly. The skinwalker killed Kirby as a message; therefore, it could have killed a different Alpha because Harry did something that lead to different results, but the skinwalker was definitely going to kill an Alpha if Harry went to Will's place).
I read the quote, mostly because I can't see how fully briefing Billy would have changed anything, as either Harry illogically blaming his withholding of information for Kirby's death or simply stating that Billy wasn't going to follow blindly because Kirby died. Kirby's death cements the seriousness of Will's role as leader for Will.
No one has demonstrated how Harry briefing Billy on the wider world of the supernatural could have saved Kirby. Until someone does that, I'm going to remain obstinate in my position that Harry's withholding of information did not get Kirby killed. I'll go so far as to say it is hypothetically possible, but that's it until someone can at least give me a hypothetical.
Even if in the text Billy said "Kirby is dead because you withheld information from us," and Dresden said "That is correct," I would still say "what" because, as you said, the skinwalker was going to kill whoever it wanted anyway.
How about instead, we take everyone's position, average them, and agree that I'm right? ;)
--- End quote ---
Page 29, Harry is just coming out of his catatonic state at Will's house...
--- Quote ---"What is it?" Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said. "But it is real bad." I glanced at Georgia.
"How long was I down?"
She checked her watch./ "Eighty-two minutes."
--- End quote ---
page 33 Just after Kirby died..
--- Quote ---Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hand.
"What is it, Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare," I said, I looked at him grimly, "A skinwalker."
--- End quote ---
Then on page 35
--- Quote ---"What are you going to do?"
"Find out why it's here," I said. "There's Council business afoot. Christ, I didn't mean to bring you into this." I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse. "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Desden,"Billy said. "He knew what could happen. He chose to be here."
Which was the truth. But it didn't help. Kirby was still dead.I hadn't known what a skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change things..
--- End quote ---
The attack on Raith Manner didn't happen until page 180... So how could have Harry used that information to warn the Alphas about the skinwalker that he had run into back on page 20 something that he only knew was bad, ugly, and dangerous, no name? When as we saw back on page 33 he just found out was a skinwalker and Kirby was already dead! Since Harry had no clue what the big bad ugly thing was how did was he deceptively leading the Alphas to it?
page 219.... Will tells Harry he had talked to Kirby's folks....
--- Quote ---I sighed. "I'm sorry."
He shrugged. "Kirby knew the risks. He'd rather have died than stand by and do nothing..
--- End quote ---
It is a little further down when Harry says...
--- Quote ---I nodded. "It's part of something bigger I cannot talk about everything that is going on.
--- End quote ---
That is when Will becomes unglued, he does say perhaps if they knew more, maybe Kirby would still be alive... However he knows perfectly well as we the readers know Harry didn't know what it was they were going up against when Kirby died back on page 33... And even if he knew, Kirby and company would still have been there for Harry..
morriswalters:
@Mira
The attack at Raith Manor reflects the attack on the Alphas. The point, to me, is to show this isn't about how Kirby could be saved. It's about showing that Harry's strategy isn't working. See below.
--- Quote from: Bad Alias ---1. Kirby died because Harry withheld information.
2. The skinwalker was going to kill Kirby no matter what Harry did.
--- End quote ---
Yeah I'm having trouble with people seeing this point. :'(
I assert the second to disprove the first. Harry's strategy is what failed. He held incompatible beliefs.
1)The first belief was that there was safety in ignorance.
2)The second that he could involve them without exposing them to what he said he was trying to protect them from.
Harry denies them the ability to exercise informed consent. It isn't about changing the outcome, it's about Wills right to make his own judgement about what is best for his pack and how best to move.
--- Quote ---Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: g33k on June 06, 2019, 08:09:45 PM ---They say one of the hallmarks of a good compromise is that nobody is really satisfied with the outcome.
Ergo: nobody is "right."
--- End quote ---
Particularly when you consider that the White God, by capricious whim can devastate a dearly held theory and crush all your dreams.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 06, 2019, 08:24:00 PM ---No, Harry had with held nothing, all he knew was it was big, bad, and so ugly it made him catatonic, he conveyed that information, the pack still backed him..
--- End quote ---
Just to be clear, by stating the premise, I wasn't endorsing it.
@Morris: Okay, I see what you're saying and agree with your conclusion about Harry wrongly denying them informed consent. It's a little trickier than "informed consent" because I think, in the DF, people are incapable of making an informed decision about gaining knowledge. This applies to Harry as well. There are several situations in which he chooses knowledge knowing there are likely to be negative consequences and he has no way of knowing the kind or degree of those consequences. (His mother's gift, and the knowledge of the Outer Gates). But they can at least choose for themselves if they are willing to take the risk of knowledge or remain ignorant. Then again, how many of us are exercising informed consent when making medical decisions? I'm certainly not a physician. So maybe "informed consent" is the perfect analogy.
I think that there is truth there being safety in ignorance, but, like all things, it's not all to the good. There is danger in both knowledge and ignorance. "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing," for example. I do believe that Harry can limit their danger by keeping them in the dark about certain things, that keeping them in the dark about other things would increase their danger, that it is very hard to tell the difference between the two, and it, at a certain point, shouldn't be Harry's choice.
I'm in complete agreement that it is all about Will choosing what risks, with regard to knowledge, that he is going to take as the leader of the Alphas, and not Harry.
Throughout the novels, we have seen the themes of information is power, sharing that power is a responsibility not to be taken lightly, and the third theme that I'm not quite certain how to word. The third theme involves that the responsibility for sharing information, which is power, isn't only on the person sharing. There is a point when it would be wrong to share information and a point when one should leave the decision to the recipients after warning them as best you can of the consequences. For an example, later in the series, Harry is keeping secrets from Karrin. She starts to get mad and confronts Harry. She says something like "you better not be doing this to protect me," and Harry responds along the lines of "no, I'm doing this to protect me." Then she is okay with it. She's okay with it because he isn't denying her agency.
I think a good example of this idea is Eb keeping the fact that Lord Raith murdered Margaret from Harry. If he had told Harry about it at any point before Harry's soulgaze with Thomas, Harry would have fought Raith and died. If he had refused to tell him about it in Blood Rites, Harry would have fought Raith in order to save Thomas and died. Eb was right to keep the information from Harry until Harry had the "insight" from his mother, but Eb never knew about the "insight." My point being that Eb couldn't know that the information was necessary for Harry's survival. Eb's reasons for withholding information were about as solid as they could have been and were still wrong.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mira
The attack at Raith Manor reflects the attack on the Alphas. The point, to me, is to show this isn't about how Kirby could be saved. It's about showing that Harry's strategy isn't working. See below.
--- End quote ---
It is a poor comparison.... It doesn't fit because when Kirby was killed, all Harry knew was this big
ugly thing was following him and had him all screwed up.. Will's place was the closest where he found refuge... That is all he knew, he had no strategy because he himself didn't know what he was going up against except it was very bad.... He couldn't withhold what he didn't know, plain and simple..
The attack on the Raith mansion is when Luccio and Harry have an interview with Lara to find out if it is she who has hired someone to follow Dresden, also if she has anything to do with the framing of Morgan.. That is when the skinwalker attacks and leaves the necklace that belongs to Thomas hinting at a trade... He is also trying to get Lara to cooperate... So far I see nothing in common with what happened to Kirby, or that withholding information on Harry's part would have made any difference at the mansion..
--- Quote ---1)The first belief was that there was safety in ignorance.
2)The second that he could involve them without exposing them to what he said he was trying to protect them from.
--- End quote ---
However that isn't what happened when Kirby died... What set Will off what Harry said he couldn't tell him what was really going down on the island.. Will countered that he has the right to know, which Harry agreed that he did..
--- Quote ---
Harry denies them the ability to exercise informed consent. It isn't about changing the outcome, it's about Wills right to make his own judgement about what is best for his pack and how best to move.
Quote
--- End quote ---
From that stand point it is ALL Will's fault that Kirby died... He is the one who called his pack to fight even though Harry was unable to give him any more information than he did about what they were up against... End of story...
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