The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
morriswalters:
@Bad Alias
Let's approach this from a different direction. What purpose does Kirby's death serve in the story? The only thing that occurs is the opportunity for Billy and Harry to have that talk. Will effectively says, if we can die helping you than you need to tell us why we should help. We're owed that for what we might have to give. I'll discuss it further if we can agree on that point.
@nadia.skylark
--- Quote ---I thought that didn't draw it, but rather that Kim brought the paper with the circle on it with her.
--- End quote ---
Asked and answered.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 05, 2019, 11:10:53 PM ---Harry told her a pretty bare bones assessment "they are vampires, they eat people," which she didn't take seriously. He could have told her more that would have made her more wary about the situation.
--- End quote ---
That he said it was too dangerous for him to go under the protection of guest right would have been enough for me. That's the part that makes me put the blame 100% on Susan (as between the two of them).
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 06, 2019, 12:43:17 AM ---@Bad Alias
Let's approach this from a different direction. What purpose does Kirby's death serve in the story? The only thing that occurs is the opportunity for Billy and Harry to have that talk. Will effectively says, if we can die helping you than you need to tell us why we should help. We're owed that for what we might have to give. I'll discuss it further if we can agree on that point.
@nadia.skylark [Objection!] Asked and answered.
--- End quote ---
I agree to that point, but don't see it's relevance to the question "How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt..." Kirby died for a couple of story reasons. One is to raise the tensions and stakes. One is to give Billy the moral authority to demand to be read in. I'll even agree that JB did it so that Harry would start moving in the direction of letting others choose if they were going to subject themselves to dangerous knowledge. To let adults choose their own fate instead of having Harry protect them. That's a slow narrative shift that started in Summer Knight with Murphy. I'd say (but don't really remember) that narrative direction ended here with it moving in a new direction of Harry hiding things to protect himself, though an element of that has always been there. That's part of the reason Harry didn't tell Kim about Archangels and Demonlords or whatever it was.
I just don't see how Harry better informing the Alphas of the wider world of supernatural creatures or politics would have helped in this situation. I do see how establishing protocols/threat levels/tactics, etc. with simple titles like "code blue," "red alert," or "omega protocol" could have changed things and whether or not Harry should have established something like that. I would be happy to discuss such, but that isn't the point I'm making.
forumghost:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 05, 2019, 11:10:53 PM ---Missing the point. It doesn't matter that Harry didn't know what she was going to do. Harry told her a pretty bare bones assessment "they are vampires, they eat people," which she didn't take seriously. He could have told her more that would have made her more wary about the situation.
--- End quote ---
He did. He told her that the Host of the Party (Bianca) had a grudge against him specifically and was almost definitely planning on using the Party as cover for an assassination attempt.
And Susan insisted on going anyway, because she was clutching the Idiot Ball so tightly her knuckles probably went white.
"Oh so this is a trap to kill Harry as a revenge plot, I'm sure that there's no danger in me The Woman he's publicly dating going there!"
Like, there's stupid, and then there's just plain dumb.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---I just don't see how Harry better informing the Alphas of the wider world of supernatural creatures or politics would have helped in this situation.
--- End quote ---
Nothing was ever going to make this any better, that should be obvious from the attack at Raith Manor. However the question is answered directly in the text.
--- Quote ---He nodded. “So. If I’d had this conversation with you sooner, maybe they wouldn’t be. Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things. They follow my lead, Harry. I have a responsibility to make sure that I do everything in my power to make them aware and safe.”
--- End quote ---
And Jim throws a little irony around later when he throws out this little snippet.
--- Quote ---“As far as the Council is concerned, the U.S. Wardens are a bunch of mushrooms.”
“Eh?”
“Kept in the dark and fed on bullshit.”
--- End quote ---
Mira:
--- Quote ---Missing the point. It doesn't matter that Harry didn't know what she was going to do. Harry told her a pretty bare bones assessment "they are vampires, they eat people," which she didn't take seriously. He could have told her more that would have made her more wary about the situation
--- End quote ---
No, I am not, he didn't just tell her they eat people, he emphasized that he felt it was too dangerous even for himself. Susan prided herself on being a good reporter,they gather information, but she never pushed him with one question about them, not one... All she could think about was "what a great scoop" it would be and that Harry was being over protective... Once that got on her brain she was deaf to any further warnings he tried to give her... She had gotten though the other things safely, discounting luck and the fact that Harry was there to save the day... So how dangerous could a nest of vampires be? She didn't need his protection she decided. It still comes back to who stole, forged the invitation, and crashed the party? Who? In my book that makes Susan solely responsible for her actions and what happened to her.. She had wanted to make her name so badly with an exclusive, it didn't matter how much information Harry gave her. In fact the more he told her the more excited and deaf she became to any warnings against it.
--- Quote ---She "handled" it by waiting in the van and then doing nothing but hold the camera while Harry killed it.
--- End quote ---
She didn't exactly wait in the van, she took a video of it remember? Of Harry killing it if I remember correctly.. She said she had handled it, in her mind she had, it doesn't matter in her mind that she had gotten it all out of perspective, and the fact that if Harry hadn't been able to kill it she could very well have been toast..
--- Quote --- I just don't see how Harry better informing the Alphas of the wider world of supernatural creatures or politics would have helped in this situation.
Nothing was ever going to make this any better, that should be obvious from the attack at Raith Manor. However the question is answered directly in the text.
Quote
He nodded. “So. If I’d had this conversation with you sooner, maybe they wouldn’t be. Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things. They follow my lead, Harry. I have a responsibility to make sure that I do everything in my power to make them aware and safe.”
And Jim throws a little irony around later when he throws out this little snippet.
Quote
--- End quote ---
You are still ignoring the fact that when the pack first came up against the skinwalker, when Kirby got killed. Harry had no clue what they were up against except it was bad and dangerous.. The attack on the Raiths came later in the book.. Will made his point because Harry was vague about the island, Kirby's death earned them the right to have all the information when they go up against something, and Harry agreed... But again, in the attack where Kirby got killed, Harry had given them the only information he had in the moment or was able to give because he was totally freaked out by it. The pack still decided to back him, their choice... Harry wasn't responsible that that, from then on if the pack decided to follow him, and he knew now what it was, then it is his duty to tell them all he knows about what they are getting into and not to shield them..
clue what it was, just that it w
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