The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
g33k:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on June 04, 2019, 07:54:52 PM --- I've figured out why I object to it. My problem is two-fold:
1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?
--- End quote ---
You seem to have packed a lot of stuff in there; some of it unpacks, but lots of it overlaps...
Choice and free will... yeah, Harry takes more blame onto himself than he should, than is reasonable, than is true. Hero complex, bigtime. Guilt, etc. He's big into "if only... " and "what if I..." and torments himself will all that. Given that Harry is the narrator, it's easy to mistake his POV for "what we are supposed to think," but we are just seeing what Harry thinks about things, and we need to remember that's all we see.
That said... Harry kinda-sorta IS a lightning rod. It's not his fault that he is, but he is.
Harry realizes that there HAS to be some sort of "Black Council" because of Just How Much Shit comes to Chicago. It gets black magic of various stripes, werewolves, Kemmlerites -- Kemmlerites, fer gawdsake, haven't been reliably seen for DECADES, and suddenly they hold their Homecoming Dance in Chi-Town??!? -- warring Faerie Queens (repeatedly), Denarians (30 of them for the whole world and they keep coming (usually in multiples) to Chicago?!), etc etc etc. All the way back to penny-ante Sells, a marginal talent who gets MULTIPLE magics that Harry (full WC Wizard) doesn't know how to do. "srsly, dude, wtf?"
Not being entirely stupid, Harry has concluded that something else is sending and/or luring All This Shit to his city. Too much of it smacks of mortal magic... hence wizards... hence a Black Council.
Is that his fault? Is any of that Harry's fault? No, it isn't.
BUT, he's the most-visible, most-obvious Supernatural in town. It... kinda makes sense that every Darth Bathrobe who visits has just gotta go poke him with a stick. Just, y'know... to see. And that makes him a "lightning rod."
And then we get to the whole "Starborn" business. The books don't give us much data, beyond it being potent vs Outsiders; don't recall how much more WoJ gives. But there's (a) possible Fate / Destiny / Chosen One stuff going on, and (b) possible Supernatural Attention (and maybe more) toward any Starborn. Again -- Not Harry's Fault. But it may still be a true thing about Harry.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 04, 2019, 07:48:15 PM ---@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.
--- End quote ---
Your right in part. But it doesn't really matter. The Senior Council could wipe the floor with the Alphas and not break a sweat. They are as much as an existential threat as the skinwalker. But by this point Jim has made his point about how Harry treats his allies.
What bemuses me is that everyone seems to want Harry to be guilty of a crime if he bears the responsibility. And it doesn't work that way. Harry's made a choice to live the way he does and he assumes the responsibility and his moral ground. He quotes Stan Lee often enough.
Mira:
--- Quote ---What bemuses me is that everyone seems to want Harry to be guilty of a crime if he bears the responsibility. And it doesn't work that way. Harry's made a choice to live the way he does and he assumes the responsibility and his moral ground. He quotes Stan Lee often enough.
--- End quote ---
I don't disagree except I think Harry takes responsibility as opposed to bares responsibility.. The first is Harry feels responsible for a lot of things even when he isn't... He may take responsibility for Kirby's death, but it really wasn't his fault... As opposed to baring responsibility for reversing the curse that wiped out the Red Court.. But then again neither is all that simple...
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 04, 2019, 06:54:22 PM ---1. Susan was deeply enough involved in the supernatural to trick Harry into a soulgaze. Only after that did she focus on Harry as her best avenue into the supernatural world. She would have found another way as is shown by Valmont in Skin Game talking about how easy it was. If Harry didn't advertise, but did consult, she would have found him anyway. If he didn't consult with the police, she would have likely doggedly pursued a supernatural entity that wasn't as keen as Harry was on getting attention. It's actually good for Harry because it helps his business. Almost any other entity would have killed/eaten her for the attention.
2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.
--- End quote ---
Many people is involve in the supernatural world, at least pheriferally. Most members of SI for example. Most of them isn't dead. The only one confirm to died after involving himself too deeply in the supernatural world by himself is Jack Murphy. Heck, most of SI does not even get hurt that much.
Most people who get into the supernatural world via Harry however, is either dead or suffer considerable losses. That should say something.
Susan could possibly involve herself in the supernatural by herself. But without Harry's help, she is unlikely to enter into the deep end of the pool. Even if she eventually gets there, it wouldn't be that fast and if she did manage to end up in the deep end of the pool by her own skill and wit , she'll be a different person than her version in book 3. I doubt even book 3 Murphy could survive the vampire bawl. The only reason she manage to survive until now, it is because Murphy enter into the pool step by step and under guidance.
For vanilla mortals and lower end practicianers, Harry is a big league player. Anyone who gets involve with him is playing in the deep end of the pool.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---BUT, he's the most-visible, most-obvious Supernatural in town. It... kinda makes sense that every Darth Bathrobe who visits has just gotta go poke him with a stick. Just, y'know... to see. And that makes him a "lightning rod."
--- End quote ---
Actually, most of the situations he's involved in, he involved himself rather than getting "poked with a stick." And a lot of what happened also happened due to the location or due to Marcone (so if Harry was in a different city, it wouldn't be happening around him). So once again, I don't see how he's a "lightning rod." If anything, he's more of a storm chaser.
--- Quote ---Many people is involve in the supernatural world, at least pheriferally. Most members of SI for example. Most of them isn't dead. The only one confirm to died after involving himself too deeply in the supernatural world by himself is Jack Murphy. Heck, most of SI does not even get hurt that much.
Most people who get into the supernatural world via Harry however, is either dead or suffer considerable losses. That should say something.
--- End quote ---
Actually, most of the vanilla mortals we see involved in the supernatural world are in situations like being eaten by vampires, having made bad deals with faeries, getting killed by denarians, getting killed by vampires, or getting killed by necromancers, getting killed by faeries.
By those standards, Harry's friends are doing quite well.
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