The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...
nadia.skylark:
Also, to come back to my objection to this:
--- Quote ---Harry is a lightning rod and he owes it to everyone around him to explain the danger of standing near him in lightning storms.
--- End quote ---
I've figured out why I object to it. My problem is two-fold:
1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?
2)"Everyone around him" is too broad a category. Harry does not owe it to the entire city of Chicago to tell them about the supernatural world. You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him. It's just unreasonable.
If you'd said, "Harry owes it to those he involves in his fights/cases to explain the dangers," I would agree with you.
--- Quote ---@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.
--- End quote ---
I tend to agree with this.
--- Quote ---Use a scale for threat level. I know people always make fun of things like the terror alert level colors or the DragonBallZ thing where they have the power reader "it's over 9,000!" stuff, but a shorthand for how bad is the monster/how bad is the situation is probably a really good idea.
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This would probably work, except that I tend to think that Harry was too catatonic to be expected to remember it in order to tell Will at the time. Other people may interpret his level of non-functionality differently, however.
Mira:
--- Quote ---2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.
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Which he clearly didn't say if one cares to read the text.. Billy is emphatic that it wasn't Harry's fault.
--- Quote --- “Billy,” I said quietly. “This isn’t stuff you can unlearn. Right now, you’re insulated from the worst of what goes on because you’re . . . I don’t want to be insulting, but you’re a bunch of amateurs without enough of a clue to be a real threat to anyone.”
His eyes darkened. “Insulated from the worst?” he asked in a quiet, dangerous voice. “Tell that to Kirby. Tell that to Andi.”
Obviously if he has been shielding then from the worst they can't of had any idea that something like the Skinwalker was a possibility. And if that isn't clear then there is this.
Quote
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Because as I have written from when it happened, Will was not blaming Harry... Harry hadn't been trying to shield them from anything because he didn't know what in the hell he had just seen except it was very bad and dangerous...
The quote you cite is on page 220, Harry now knows what they are after and it is on the island. Will is willing to help, but he no longer wants to be shielded from the danger by Harry.. He wasn't assessing blame for Kirby's death to Harry, he was saying that they are not kids anymore, and earned the right to be fully filled in about what is going down..
Harry then says..
--- Quote ---I pointed a finger at him. "I don't want it. I don't wantto drag you into what's going on/ I don't want you walking into more danger and getting hurt." I sighed. "But. . .there is a lot at stake, and I think I may need your help."
--- End quote ---
Will agrees, and Harry realizes they are not kids anymore, and promises to clue them in as much as he can from now on...
--- Quote ---1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?
--- End quote ---
Because he is the lightning rod, and because for the most part he is the one who cares enough to want to do something about it... What is more has the talent to do something about it... He is living the argument his mother used to make to the Senior Council, that wizards cannot lock themselves away in some ivory tower while the world falls down around them.. Other people naturally want to join his causes, they are very dangerous causes, and people get hurt and sometimes even killed.
--- Quote ---2)"Everyone around him" is too broad a category. Harry does not owe it to the entire city of Chicago to tell them about the supernatural world. You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him. It's just unreasonable.
--- End quote ---
It is, but like he learned from Will, if someone is willing to put his or her life on the line, they deserve the complete skinny on as to why...
--- Quote ---This would probably work, except that I tend to think that Harry was too catatonic to be expected to remember it in order to tell Will at the time. Other people may interpret his level of non-functionality differently, however.
--- End quote ---
The way I read the text and the aftermath of Kirby's death, Harry wasn't sure what he saw, he had never seen a skinwalker before that moment.. It wasn't until the fight was over that he realized what they were up against..
Page 33
--- Quote ---"What was that thing?"
"I'm not certain," I answered, breathing hard. Georgia was coming along behind us dragging my staff in her jaws. "But if it is what I think it is, things just got a lot worse."
Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hands. "What is it Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare," I said. I looked at him gravely, "A skinwalker."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---
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Wolfeyes:
I think a big differentiator in whether a) Harry just feels guilty b) Harry is culpable for someone getting hurt and/or killed through withholding information comes through in the narrative choices.
Whenever Harry makes a mistake like being in denial about his feelings towards Murphy, or being too afraid to bond with Maggie, or even just in how much guilt he feels about something, Butcher's usually good at throwing someone reliable at Harry to challenge him on those points-of-view. Murphy in Cold Days, Michael in Skin Game, and even Uriel in The Warrior short story, for example.
In the case of Kirby, the narrative doesn't challenge Billy's response to Kirby's death (contrasted to how the narrative challenged Butter in Skin Game). Billy is the one challenging Harry and is framed in justified in expecting Harry to share more information. Harry might not be the cause but there's culpability, otherwise Harry would have no reason to change how he does things.
nadia.skylark:
To me, the issue is not that Harry is in any way culpable in Kirby's death, but that, by refusing to share information, Harry allowed the possibility that other Alphas would get killed due to the lack of information. It's a hypothetical concern that was only really brought home to Will and Harry when Kirby died. For example, if the Alpha's had gotten into a fight with a Denarian and one of them had died, there's a good chance Harry would have had some culpability, because he had a bunch of information about Denarians that might have helped, but up until this point he hasn't shared it. This isn't true with the Skinwalker, of course, but it makes the possibilities clear.
g33k:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 04, 2019, 03:38:54 AM --- The point is Susan should have known about the supernatural at all. This is all started when Harry advertise himself as a wizard in the yellow pages. He open the Pandora's box right there. There is a reason why the white council looks poorly about Harry in this matter. It may look innocent at the start, but Harry's advertisement draws amateurs into the the game of supernaturals.
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No, it started when Susan went to work for The Arcane, well before she met Harry. Harry attests they "once in a while" they documented genuine supernatural events; he cites a 1994 event in SF (published 2000, so written 1998ish(?)), before she and Harry met.
As Harry attests repeatedly, most of the reason Dresdenverse mundanes don't believe in the supernatural is because they don't want to. She was following what SI did, what any "psychic consultant" for the cops did. She was both clever and curious, and -- critically -- willing to believe.
Susan seems to have tricked Harry into a soulgaze, confirming (a) that magic is real, & (b) that Harry had magic.
Susan was a reporter, and a good one; after that soulgaze, nothing would have shaken her loose from Harry.
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