The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

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Mira:

--- Quote ---   3b) Harry was incapable of sharing any information from the time he used his Sight on the Skinwalker until he had recovered in Will's guest room
--- End quote ---

He didn't even know what he had seen except it was real bad...  Page 28 Turn Coat..  Harry is recovering from seeing it, he had been down for 82 minutes...


--- Quote ---"What is it?"  Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said.  "But it is real bad."
--- End quote ---

Harry did ask Billy to call the pack together...  However he wasn't withholding any information because he didn't have any...  Just that it was bad enough to send him into a near catatonic state.. It should have been a holy shit moment for Billy to hold back protecting his pack until they got more information.. There was no more information to be had, except it was bad, ugly, and extremely dangerous.   For the record....
Billy DID NOT blame Harry for what happened to Kirby....  page 35 Turn Coat hardback

--- Quote ---I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse.  "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Dresden," Billy said. "He knew what could happen.  He chose to be here."
--- End quote ---
 

Harry knows that was true, but he still felt responsible, but then admitted he couldn't have known.. same page


--- Quote ---I hadn't known what the skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change anything.
--- End quote ---
Harry hadn't withheld any information before hand, he told Billy it was something very, very bad, no clue as to what it was he saw, except bad.  So bad it made him catatonic for over eighty minutes after seeing it with his sight... Billy knew that and still agreed to call his pack in..

Billy, now Will goes on to say to Harry....same page..


--- Quote ---"You didn't know it was going to come down like that, man.  We all owe you our lives, Harry, I'm glad we got the chance to be there for you."
--- End quote ---

As Nadia says, whoever sent the skinwalker in the first place is the the blame, the real guilty party.. The skinwalker is a sadistic creature doing it's bidding, it enjoys it's job..  Neither Harry nor Billy nor any of the other of it's victims are the blame...  Will and his pack made a choice to back Harry, Kirby paid the ultimate price for doing that, but it was his choice... Even if they had understood it was a skinwalker and all that implied, would they have made the same choice?  Yeah, I think so...

Bad Alias:
1. Susan was deeply enough involved in the supernatural to trick Harry into a soulgaze. Only after that did she focus on Harry as her best avenue into the supernatural world. She would have found another way as is shown by Valmont in Skin Game talking about how easy it was. If Harry didn't advertise, but did consult, she would have found him anyway. If he didn't consult with the police, she would have likely doggedly pursued a supernatural entity that wasn't as keen as Harry was on getting attention. It's actually good for Harry because it helps his business. Almost any other entity would have killed/eaten her for the attention.

2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on June 04, 2019, 04:57:34 PM ---Here's the definition I found on google:
Also, could you please respond to the points I have made in response to this claim? I'll list the major ones:
1) the Skinwalker is responsible for its own actions
2) there are several people (the person who sent the Skinwalker, Billy, and Kirby) who are at least as responsible as Harry
3) Harry's actions regarding the sharing or not sharing of information about the supernatural world would not have made a difference, so therefore his lack of sharing information cannot be what makes him responsible
        3a) A general briefing about the supernatural world would not have included Skinwalkers, and for good reason
        3b) Harry was incapable of sharing any information from the time he used his Sight on the Skinwalker until he had recovered in Will's guest room

And I responded by saying that Will was speaking from a place of ignorance, and admitted that. Therefore, he could not know whether the information Harry might have given him would have made a difference.

--- End quote ---
1) Yes.  The Skinwalker murdered Kirby, he could hang or go to hell.
2) True.  So?
3) Billy disagrees. Since you can't read the future or JB's mind just how would you know that? And it is here that we find the crux of the problem.
3a)  Again you can't know that, since JB hasn't told you.  Billy assumes that in general more information is better, possibly not in specifics, but for judging the level of danger that is possible even if never encountered.  Since Billy makes it clear that he won't work with Harry if Harry isn't more open, then we can assume that Harry tells Billy enough to satisfy the conditions that Billy laid down..

3b)Read that line back to yourself and say.  "That is a failure of planning on Harry's part."

@Mira

--- Quote ---“Billy,” I said quietly. “This isn’t stuff you can unlearn. Right now, you’re insulated from the worst of what goes on because you’re . . . I don’t want to be insulting, but you’re a bunch of amateurs without enough of a clue to be a real threat to anyone.”
His eyes darkened. “Insulated from the worst?” he asked in a quiet, dangerous voice. “Tell that to Kirby. Tell that to Andi.”
--- End quote ---
Obviously if he has been shielding then from the worst they can't of had any idea that something like the Skinwalker was a possibility.  And if that isn't clear then there is this.
--- Quote ---I couldn’t treat him like a child anymore. Will was ignorant of the supernatural world beyond the fairly minor threats that lurked around the University of Chicago. He and the other werewolves had been kids who learned one really neat magic trick, almost ten years before. I hadn’t shared more with them, and the paranormal community in general is careful about what they say to strangers. He had, at best, only a vague idea of the scope of supernatural affairs in general, and he had not the first clue about how hot the water really was around me right now.
--- End quote ---

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---1) Yes.  The Skinwalker murdered Kirby, he could hang or go to hell.
2) True.  So?
--- End quote ---

So the point of this is that you can't say that Harry is solely, or even mostly, responsible for Kirby's death. Which is what you were saying, and which these points refute.


--- Quote ---3) Billy disagrees. Since you can't read the future or JB's mind just how would you know that? And it is here that we find the crux of the problem.
3a)  Again you can't know that, since JB hasn't told you.  Billy assumes that in general more information is better, possibly not in specifics, but for judging the level of danger that is possible even if never encountered.  Since Billy makes it clear that he won't work with Harry if Harry isn't more open, then we can assume that Harry tells Billy enough to satisfy the conditions that Billy laid down..
--- End quote ---

I have already explained my logic in previous posts. I will quote it here:

--- Quote ---As for Kirby, I just don't think that any amount of information would have helped him against a skinwalker in that scenario. He knew that he was going up against something both powerful and dangerous--I can't think how specifics would have stopped him getting ambushed. Furthermore, even if Harry had given the Alphas a briefing about the supernatural world (like the one he gave them after Kirby's death) earlier, it almost certainly wouldn't have contained information about the skinwalker, because 1) as I recall, Harry didn't know much about them himself; 2) they're extremely rare, and Harry had no reason to expect anyone to run into them; and 3) there are very good reasons not to talk about them, because being afraid of them actually makes them stronger.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---He might have been more cautious. But A) he knew something super-bad might be out there already, because Will and Georgina had seen the state that Harry arrived in; and B) so long as he was out patrolling at all, the Skinwalker would have got him--it's just too good.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Maybe. Maybe not. We don't really know what Harry's told them about the dangers out there. Harry wasn't prepared for the skinwalker, so I have a hard time imagining he could have sufficiently prepared the Alphas.

The bottom line is that the case of Kirby is a weak argument for Harry's withholding of information being harmful.
--- End quote ---

This.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---They couldn't make an informed choice because he kept them in the dark.
--- End quote ---
An informed choice about what? Fighting monsters generally? Well, Harry may not have given them all the information, but they've been doing it long enough at this point that I think it's safe to assume that they've made a reasonably informed decision regarding whether they want to keep doing that. The fact that Harry was followed? Well, it would have been helpful if he'd shared more information about that, but given that he was barely conscious and hardly capable of stringing two words together, I don't see how he could have managed it. Skinwalkers in particular? Well, talking about them makes them stronger, plus they seem fairly obscure, and Harry had no reason to expect that anyone he knew would ever run into them, so I think that falls under the category of "can't be reasonably foreseen."
--- End quote ---
Also, I'd like to add that textual evidence has been cited establishing that Harry knew nothing about Skinwalkers until after Kirby was killed by one, so even if Harry had given Will an exhaustive list of every supernatural creature he knew of, it still wouldn't have told Will anything about Skinwalkers.


--- Quote ---Yes, but Billy was quite explicitly coming from a place of ignorance. For all he knew, these things were as common as faeries, and with similar weaknesses.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---And I responded by saying that Will was speaking from a place of ignorance, and admitted that. Therefore, he could not know whether the information Harry might have given him would have made a difference.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---3b)Read that line back to yourself and say.  "That is a failure of planning being unable to see the future on Harry's part."
--- End quote ---

Fixed it for you. Seriously, how was Harry supposed to plan for something that he didn't have any reason to know might happen? And how should he have planned for it? Please provide a step-by-step plan for how to deal with nearly having your mind destroyed by looking at an ancient evil with the Sight, keeping in mind that he had no way of anticipating said ancient evil, no practical experience with having the Sight cause such a reaction, and no meaningful ability to function from the moment he Saw it until at least a couple of hours after being locked in a dark room with no stimuli.

Bad Alias:
@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.


--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on June 04, 2019, 07:40:39 PM ---And how should he have planned for it?

--- End quote ---

Use a scale for threat level. I know people always make fun of things like the terror alert level colors or the DragonBallZ thing where they have the power reader "it's over 9,000!" stuff, but a shorthand for how bad is the monster/how bad is the situation is probably a really good idea.

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